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Talk:List of famous gay, lesbian or bisexual people

Talk:List of famous gay, lesbian or bisexual people/archive
I have serious questions about some of the current status of this page. I am not questioning whether it should exit, but it currently reads to allow people merely suspected of being gay, etc. Most of this is hearsay and in some cases there is very little evidence. Even the disclaimer at the top explains that some of the names are quite disputed. I don't see the benefit in adding people who are suspected. Put it in their biography pages, but not on a listing of "Famous gay lesbin or bisexual people". I vote to remove the disclaimer and all those who are debated. At the very least we need a new article or a new section for those people who are debated. Right now I have no idea which people in the list are debated and which ones are not. Rather than start an edit war, I decided to put my thoughts here before changing anything. -- Ram-Man

I'd agree with that. I also reckon the article should be broken up into famous gay people[?], famous bisexual people, and famous lesbian people[?]. In the example mentioned above of a lesbian (say) wanting to know that she's not alone, seperated lists would be more useful. I can't think of any reason to keep them together, personally. -Martin

Do we also need three articles for suspected gay people[?], etc. or something of the sort? I am not necessarily advocating removing the debated people, but they need their own articles. -- RM

Replace the information in the article with the following and appropriately move the information:

or,

I agree it's a good idea to separate those who are definitely gay and those only suspected of being gay, but I don't think they need separate articles - just put the two lists both in this article, with a heading like "Famous people suspected of being gay, lesbain or bisexual". I'm also not convinced we need separate lists for gays, lesbians and bisexuals, but if that's what people really want, well, OK. Again, though, I'd rather have sub-lists within this one article. --Camembert

My reason for multiple lists is a practical one. Currently each one is listed from A to Z. Now if we split them into sublists, we are going to have a large number of lists all from A to Z. This is going to be quite long and cumbersome. Especially considering how many letters there are, people are bound to put names in the wrong list. There is no real problem that I can think of with dividing the names (unless there would not be enough names to fill the lists, but I don't think this will be a problem). It is also easier to find a person in a certain category which is a nice benefit. -- RM

Why will sublists make for a longer article than we have now? If we get rid of the letter headings (A, B, and so on), which I don't think are needed in any case, the article might actually end up being shorter than at present. I also don't see how the chances of somebody putting a name in the wrong list are any greater if all the lists are on one page - I would guess, in fact, that the chances of that happening would be reduced, as they can see at a glance that quite a detailed sub-categorisation is going on. I don't see how it's "easier to find a person in a certain category" with separate articles either - surely you have to flick from article to article to find someone, which to me seems rather tiresome. Anyway, this list is by no means so large as to require splitting up.

Just to expand on my reasons for not wanting to split up gay, lesbian and bisexual - it ought to be clear, surely, that if somebody is male, they are gay, and if somebody is female, they are lesbian. "Bisexual" is a rather dodgy term at the best of times - some people will tell you that we are all of us somewhere on the bisexuality continuum. What makes somebody bisexual? If a nominally gay man sleeps with one woman, is he bisexual? What if a nominally straight man sleeps with one man? Better, I think, to keep everyone on the one list (except divided between "certains" and "maybes") and explain all the details on their bio page (a parenthetical comment after their list entry may be useful in some cases, also). --Camembert

I actually mostly agree with your current view of things. However, this would require removing the "A-Z" markers. They are obviously there for a reason. If you don't put them in new articles, you pretty much have to remove the "A-Z" markers to keep the article from being too cluttered. If you make new articles you can keep the markers in anticipation of future growth of these pages. Still, the bisexual problem does make for an interesting situation. -- RM

This entry is already making an arbitrary split between straight and bi, so why not make another arbitrary split between bi and gay? Are we to have famous straight, gay, lesbian, bisexual, and asexual people[?]? famous people with a sexual orientation[?]? This kind of categorisation issue is nothing new (see listing of noted atheists, and can be dealt with on a case by case basis. -Martin

Well, I don't mind the "A-Z" markers going - the list(s) should remain in alphabetical order, of course, but I think we all know our alphabet, and we don't really need those markers to remind us of it. As for Martin's concerns - I mean, I sort of agree with you, I think, but I'm not sure what you're arguing for any more (sorry). I suppose I think of this page as being essentially a "List of famous queer people" - we can't actually call the page that, though, because "queer" isn't a term which is widely enough known and accepted. As I say, details can go in the person's own article, or, if required, in a parenthetical comment after their name on this list.

To sum up, then - I think we should keep everyone in this one article; I think we should get rid of the "A-Z" markers; I think we should divide the list into two based on whether there is no serious argument about whether they were gay or whether there is disagreement on the matter; I think we could make comments such as "(an openly gay musician)" or "(a member of parliament suspected of being bisexual") after the person's name if required. --Camembert

Are you saying to not even have the debateable people in their own article? Also the article already encourages people to comment, but that really has not happened or it has caused othe problems. -- Ram-Man

Yes, that's what I'm saying - the debatables should be on this page, but on their own separate list (so the article would be in two halves - the list of "certainties" and the list of "debatables"). I just don't see the point of separating them to their own article. I just mentioned commenting on others as an alternative to actually splitting up bisexuals, lesbians, etc. I should probably say, by the way, that I'm not a big fan of any of these "List of..." pages (although I have been keeping an eye on this one), so I won't argue very strongly against any changes made here. I'm just saying how I'd like to see things, and how I think things would be best, but if things don't work out that way, that's fine. --Camembert

Who is the "Gay US Actor Alan Bates"? The only famous Alan Bates I know of is 1. British and 2. Straight (but has played gay characters)

Also, was Montgomery Clift widely known to be gay? --- Syncrolecyne (Is John Paul II widely known to be catholic!!! It was practically shouted off the rooftops, to the embarrassment of senior Hollywood stars in the closet who were terrified they'd be asked about their sex lives. JtdIrL)

Socrates was of debated sexual orientation? Are you nuts?! Have you read The Symposium?! I think the only people who "debate" Socrates' sexual orientation are people with their fingers in their ears, chanting "La la la, I can't hear you!" I have never heard anyone attempt to argue that he was heterosexual and I was completely unaware that there was any dispute about him at all. - Montréalais

Just added Camille Saint-Saens to the list of "possibles" - [1] (http://www.league-ncr.com/library/history/heritage2) claims "There's no question about his homosexuality", but I don't think it's a reliable source (it says Frederic Chopin was gay, which as far as I know, he wasn't). The evidence for Saint-Saens is pretty circumstantial as far as I'm aware (though I'm happy to be corrected on that).

In more general news - might it be an idea to move all the unclassified ones to the "certain" list, and let people move them to the "debatables" if they feel there is any debate? Otherwise, they might never be moved at all. --Camembert

  • I would definitely agree twith that and the only reason I didn't do it myself is that I thought it might make some people shirty. - Montréalais

Shouldn't there be a comma in the title after "gay"? --Eloquence 09:17 Feb 11, 2003 (UTC)

Yes. I meant to fix it a while ago, but forgot somehow. I'll do it now. --Camembert

Saint-Saens reputedly had an affair with Tchaikovsky? Are you sure about that? It's a new one on me - who reputes this, exactly? --Camembert

It gives the sexual phrase "making sweet music together" a whole new meaning! JtdIrL 01:59 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)

I've taken it out now, anyway. If somebody has a cite for it, I'd be interested to hear it. As far as I know, the main suggestion with Saint-Saens was that he liked young Algerian men. I couldn't even find the Tchaikovksy claim on the web (though I did find a claim that the two were in a drag show together, and that Erik Satie must have been gay because he owned a lot of umbrellas or something like that). --Camembert

Added in Sinead O'Connor, who stated recently that she had had relationships with women. Having once seen Sinead and her new (now apparently about to be her ex) husband kiss so intensely that I had wondered if one or other would pass out for lack of oxygen, I can certainly confirm her liking for men too. So I guess means she is bisexual. JtdIrL 02:18 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)

Jtdirl commented "homophobia is a standard link in gay related pages"

What? Are you saying that every gay related page, even if there is nothing about homophobia in it, should have a link to homophobia? We put a link to antisemitism on every jewish related page. Or did I simply misunderstand you, and there is something about *this* page that warrants a link to homophobia?

It has been the general rule in this page to describe Actors from the United States as being US actors, rather than American. Homophobia is a standard link that is attached to gay related pages, just as we have links to Homophobic hate speech, etc. (If this one isn't on here, I am adding it.) Leave the page in the format it has generally been agreed to. JtdIrL 01:38 Mar 5, 2003 (UTC) And yes, homosexuality is reacted to in different ways. One way (unfortunately) is homophobia, hence the link to explain it. It has been that way for ages by agreement.

I've reinstated Michael Portillo to the confirmed sexual orientation page. When the press release was issued by Michael, it spoke of 'youthful indiscretions' (if I remember the correct term), which made it sound like a bit of fumbling in some classmate's nickers in the boy scouts. In fact it was confirmed that Michael's experiences were not the acts of some young teenager 'experimenting' but a fully grown adult who engaged in homosexual sexual activities but more importantly homosexual relationships throughout his twenties and well into his thirties, if I remember correctly. Michael was challenged about this and asked (by homophobic pro-tory tabloids) to deny being bisexual, to use the excuse 'I was just a kid. It meant nothing, etc'. He didn't, spoke of his relationships as real relationships, and never once challenged the description of himself as bisexual. By my estimation, an adult who not merely has the odd romp with someone of the same sex but enters into longterm relationships when they themselves are more than a teenager but actually an adult in their 20s and 30s, has to be called either gay or bisexual. There would be no dispute. The only issue is the truth or otherwise of their heterosexual side. I have no grounds whatsoever for doubting Michael's heterosexual side, so by definition he must be bisexual. Hence his position back on the list. STÓD/ÉÍRE 09:43 Mar 8, 2003 (UTC)

Portillo hasn't admitted being gay, bisexual or whatever. In fact, he's gone out of his way to avoid being labelled as such. So I don't see how you can say his status is "confirmed", bearing in mind the warning within the article. I didn't take him off the list, I only switched him to a different category. Deb 17:23 Mar 8, 2003 (UTC)
PS. Why has everybody started using different names? Is it just to confuse me?

Someone who has admitted having sexual relationships with men for over a decade as well as relationships with women is by definition bisexual. He doesn't have to formally say the word to be it. If I was working as his PR agent, I would have told him not to formally say the word, even though you have implied it unambiguously. Not using the word allows the elderly 'blue rinse' brigade in the local Tory organisation not to have to face the fact that their MP is bisexual. They can still use the classic cop-out phrase 'it was a phase he was going through'. Saying the word would have been one step too far for the blue rinses. Not using the word, even though by what you have said you all but spray paint it in 20 foot high lettering on the side of our house, is standard PR procedure in these situations. But his description of what he did unambiguously defines himself as bisexual. And when challenged, he had refused for sound PR reasons to use any word to describe his sexuality. STÓD/ÉÍRE 21:25 Mar 8, 2003 (UTC)

This article is very scattered, and very difficult to sift through. The two lists of people still under debate should be removed from the article and placed into the TALK page. Only confirmed people should be listed in the article. Doing so will make the article easier to read and understand. Leave the debates for the TALK page. Kingturtle 17:35 May 4, 2003 (UTC)
Hellooooooo. Please chime in about my suggestion: Only confirmed people should appear in the article. All speculation should take place behind the scenes in the TALK arena. Agree or disagree? Kingturtle 22:19 May 8, 2003 (UTC)

Agree. I was wondering about the latest additions. Evercat 22:20 May 8, 2003 (UTC)

I am a lil' miffed here. I posted my suggestion two weeks ago, and there is but one reply. An encyclopedia is not about speculation. This article should only list confirmed people. Kingturtle 19:07 18 May 2003 (UTC)

If there are "unconfirmed" people on the list, I'd be inclined to remove them. It is a litigable issue, after all, and commonly viewed as a stigma, so we should be very careful about it. Koyaanis Qatsi

Please keep unconfirmed names off of the ARTICLE. The names can be debated within the TALK portion. Kingturtle 21:13 22 May 2003 (UTC)

The following people are unconfirmed:

This is a real, genuine, honest and simple question without the slightest intention of starting a controversy: Who decides which people are "unconfirmed" (see above)? Without being able to quote the source, I remember reading ages ago that Maugham was "a homosexual". Would Maugham have had to write about his sexual orientation himself or would someone have had to catch him in the act? What counts as "confirmation"? --KF 21:25 22 May 2003 (UTC)

Indeed. His nephew, Robin, 2nd Viscount Maugham of Hartsfield, claimed they had sexual relations. Maughm claimed to be heterosexual, yet one can read the following in his biography: "Throughout his brilliant career Willie led a double life: his marriage to Syrie was a sham and he spent much of it abroad with his American lover, Gerald Haxton, who had been barred from the U.K. as a security risk. In 1927 he finally left England to live on Cap Ferrat in the Villa Mauresque, dubbed by Noel Coward 'the other Vatican.' Here he played pontiff end received the famous and the infamous, everyone from royals to rent boys. In his final years, senile and manipulated by Alan Searle, his elderly and avaricious secretary-lover, he attempted to disown his daughter and adopt Searle as his son. The mockery that greeted this was kept from him, as was the anger and tension caused by his memoirs, in which he attacked his dead wife and claimed to be a red-blooded heterosexual." What we should be looking for is not "confirmation" but attribution of the allegation. <Al Anon>

Good question. I am not sure what will constitute confirmation. What constituted the confirmations of those listed as confirmed on the main article? This, too, is a genuine question. Kingturtle 21:28 22 May 2003 (UTC)

I'd be inclined to include only those people who have outed themselves--making this list quite a lot shorter. Koyaanis Qatsi

So what about, e.g., Sappho? Does she count, even though no one "caught her in the act" (that we know of)? -- John Owens 21:35 22 May 2003 (UTC)

I don't think that would be a good idea, KQ - Schubert and Tchaikovsky, for example, never outed themselves (not in any modern sense, anyway), but I think I'm right in saying that it's very widely accepted that they were gay. Or, to give a more modern example, I don't think Freddie Mercury ever came out in any very public way (I could be wrong about that - I can't remember for sure). As the article says, if there is no debate about someone's orientation, I don't see any problem with including them in the main list. --Camembert

Fine, I just think it's foolish to list famous people who are still alive who deny being queer, or who refuse to comment on it. I'm not going to get in an edit war over it. Koyaanis Qatsi

Don't worry, I'm not up for an edit war about it either. For what it's worth, I think I'd agree with you about not listing living people who deny or refuse to comment on the matter (they certainly shouldn't be in the "confirmed" section), but I can't see anybody who fits that description in the list anwyay (though I'm probably missing something obvious). --Camembert

Michael Jackson, and the MP, and I think Janet Reno. Koyaanis Qatsi

Ah, sorry, crossed wires by the looks of it: I thought you meant people in the article as it stood rather than those removed and listed above. I'd agree on Jackson and I don't know anything about Reno, but if Chris Smith is the MP you mean, I'm almost certain that he's openly gay. --Camembert

While I certainly do not want to step on any toes, I just moved two additions to the confirmed list down to the debated list: Sappho and Woolf. Now, the only reason I did was because the changes were made by a non-user who can neither explain nor defend the additions, and no updates were made to correct the bio pages. If any USER would like to move them, I wouldn't think of objecting, I just didn't want to see it done by random non-users.

On a side note, no matter what external link is used for evidence, I strongly suggest Jesus Christ (who should be properly listed as Jesus Nazarene, Jesus of Nazareth, Yeshua, or even Jesus, Son of Joseph in the first place, the historical not the religious figure) be removed from the list. The heading is "debated," however, I do not see how this figure could possibly be openly debated as very little philosophical discourse is even permitted about him. I also think it's asking for vandalism, but...Paige

Well, the addition of Virginia Woolf now seems fine to me since her bio page has been updated as well. I really believe we should see similar reasoning on the bio page of each name on the list, or else move the name to the debated list. Although, ideally, I still agree with Ram-Man's original assertion that they are not a "famous gay, lesbian or bisexual person" unless their sexual orientation is equally famous, and therefore the debated list seems unnecessary to me. Why can't we limit the list to those people of whom there is no doubt? Paige

Im bi, Jesus Christ is/was definitely not. No questions about that one guys, even The Bible, God's word, is against homosexuality.

Antonio Electro shot! Martin

I won't challenge Socrates' undisputedness (yet), but what the heck[?] is Aristotle doing here at all? He repeated the invidiously intended rumor about Socrates having his way with young boys with an extreme sense of distate. Is there any (even circumstantial) evidence that he might have had even supressed tendencies[?]; other than "of course" (what's the emoticon for sarcasm[?]?) his ethnicity :-/ Cimon Avaro on a pogo stick 05:14 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I deleted Margaret Cho. Although she has a large gay (predominantly Lesbian) following, she has always maintained that she is heterosexual. RickK 03:29 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)

If that's so then the article on her needs changing, as it states she is bisexual (I know nothing about her, so I'm not touching any of this myself). --Camembert

This quote from Margaret is from Out magazine's June 2002 issue:
Cho recalls that several years ago when she was performing at a comedy festival in Montreal, her then-manager took her aside and told her "not to sit in Lea DeLaria's lap so much." He then asked her if she was "completely straight." "I told him I didn’t know. And he said, 'It doesn’t matter if you are or if you’re not. You have to tell people that you are completely straight. You have to show that you are completely straight.' I didn’t know how to do that. I didn't know how to be someone who wasn’t me."
While she's now very open about her sexuality not falling under the straight category, she's not as clear about where exactly it does fit in. At different times she's referred to herself as bi, "a big dyke," or even as "a gay man in a woman's body." Paige 13:53 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)


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