< Talk:List of French monarchs
Edited portion:
JHK, Wednesday, July 17, 2002
I agree with you completely. I reluctantly redirected the pages of Clovis I to "of country" when maveric149 started complaining. There wasn't any Clovis I etc. of Franks and I knew it was ridiculous. "of Franks" was created just to satisfy the vigilant moderators. I was intended to started the list with Charlemagne but I have to collect all info first and save them as a draft. After all info is there, I will cut and paste the Merovingians and your edited portionto other pages. My previous saves have to be restored to facilite my work. Nothing personal. Thanks for your help. Ktsquare Wed july 17 2002
Okay I compromise. Ktsquare Wed july 17 2002
I think my actions here have been misrepresented – all I did was suggest that wikipedia:History standards be read. And Ktsquare, everyone here is a moderator and nobody suggested using the [X of people] format. BTW, the history standards page is in bad need of organization – in the version I read there was no obvious mention of only treating monarchs of modern kingdoms in the [X of kingdom] format. This misconnect is probably the reason we now have Cleopatra VII of Egypt, which I think is unnecessary and starts a bad precident for ancient rulers. Can we have a clear statement on that page that [X of kingdom] is to be used only for modern kingoms? --maveric149
Someone filed this in the bug reports tracker, I'm moving it here:
The correct person seems to be Carloman, King of the West Franks. I'll leave any renaming and fixing of links to those more familiar with the local naming conventions... --Brion 22:34 Nov 24, 2002 (UTC)
Zoe -- all explanations for removal of Merovingians can be found above and elsewhere on the pedia. They aren't French. They are Frankish. There is a difference. I din't explain, for the same reason that I didn't log in -- I wanted to fix this without dealing with the French nationalist and/or non-expert patrol. JHK
Gotcha. OK, if we change it back to non-Merovingian, could we include a link and explanation? -- Zoe
What -- like "The Merovingians are NOT French, but if you want to think they are, here's where to find them?" They're in History of France I believe
From a modern POV France didn't exists until Louis XI. I will add more comment later. Ericd 21:36 Mar 4, 2003 (UTC)
I wondered about the reasoning behind the Merovingian Dynasty not being part of the list of French monarchs until I saw where user User:JHK had intentionally removed the Merovingian rulers names. Then I checked to see that this was not the first time User:JHK had done that. Having taken the time to look through this matter, including the assessing of the prior writings of User:JHK on articles relative to this aspect of European history, it appears that User:JHK has a personal agenda to rewrite and present history the way she wants it to be. While I cannot even speculate on User:JHK’s motivations, I do know the attempts to downplay the long history of France and its rulers stems from centuries of animosity and bloodshed between France and Germany. The German elite could not claim the Merovingians for themselves because the country of Germany was only created in 1871 and the Merovingian empire was centered almost exclusively and continuously in France. As such, at the height of the ill will, the major attempt at rewriting France's history was made by the Nazis in 1933 under Minister for Propaganda, Joseph Goebbels. The Nazi doctrine proclaimed the Merovingians to be rulers of a never never land, not France. As part of this indoctrination, Hitler’s regime made Alsace and Lorraine permanent parts of the German Fatherland and wiped out all traces of French there, banning the speaking of French and burning all French books. Hitler's desire to distort anything contrary to his view of a glorious Aryan history had no foundation in facts of any kind, and was not shared by any credible institution or person then or now. This propaganda that the Merovingians are not Kings of France contradicts the United States Library of Congress, Encyclopedia Britannica, Microsoft Encarta, the Bibliotheque Nationale de France, and every historian of recognizable standing in the world. I quote here from "Merovingian Dynasty." Britannica Concise Encyclopedia 2003 Encyclopędia Britannica Premium Service. 06 Mar, 2003 http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=1657&tocid=0&query=merovingian%20dynasty&ct= as follows:
Absolutely King Childeric I made his capital at Tournai in what is now Belgium but I note that User:JHK completely revamped the article on Clovis I with a revision on September 4 2002. The most authorative works on these Merovingians, written during the times, was by Gregoire of Tours (539-594) in Tours, France. Check out User:JHK’s revision of Clovis I and you will see that it obliterated any reference to France and removed important historical facts that contradict her views. Clovis I, and other Merovingians, ruled over what is often called the Frankish kingdom but that "kingdom" is in reality virtually all of today's France with only a tiny portion of what is today called Germany. Any early references to Germanic peoples are not the German people we think of today in any way shape or form. The name was given by the early Romans to lump together a number of peoples who had no actual connection to each other. Included in those lumped as Germanic was a tribe living in Italy. However, for most all of the Merovingians, Paris was their capital and from there they attempted to consolidate their empires. 1,500 years later it is their descendants who still occupy France. User:JHK seems to think that because the borders of France changed over time, or the label given the territory at a certain date, changed, that they are somehow not French. Every country in the world has had their border and name changed countless times over the centuries. It is worth noting that user User:JHK had previously deliberately deleted from the Wikipedia article the important and symbolic fact that Clovis I was borm in Tournai in what is now Belgium but is buried in his capital of Paris, France in the Saint Denis Basilica where ONLY French Royalty are buried including other Merovingian rulers. Clovis and other of the Merovingian kings were born in France, lived there all their lives, died there and were buried there. It was in fact a Merovingian, Dagobert I who founded the Abbey at St. Denis. I suggest Wikipedia participants or visitors go to Clovis I and Childebert I and look at the photos. Are these medals of the Kings a fraud? I have copied one of them and posted it here:
Note too, that in the writings of User:JHK on any of the Carolingian kings, the references and connections to France are also omitted. For User:JHK to delete facts from Wikipedia articles because they disprove her unfounded claims, is an abomination of Wikipedia values. HK is not the Encyclopedia Britannica and as best I can determine, standing in has not produced any published works that I could find in any leading periodicals and is not ranked with, or acknowledged by, any of the other of the world’s leading authorities on this subject. Her thesis on the Carolingians is exactly that: Her Thesis. I for one respect various views expressed in a neutral fashion and designated as such. But, I strongly resent someone manipulating unsuspecting contributors to Wikipedia like User:Zoe who recognized the truth regarding the Merovingians as founders of the French Royal House.
I note too, User:JHK efforts to obliterate parts of French history includes her changing the name of another ruler from the French name Pepin to Pippin. The French name Pepin is the only one used for the French rulers. The family name "Pepin" is one of the most common in France and Quebec where the name "Pippin" does not exist. (See the thousands of articles on the origin of family names and the adoption of rulers names by ordinary citizens in Burkes Peerage and other publications.) and Pepin is the English language spelling. See where the Wikipedia article on Pepin the Short was changed to Pippin with no notation that he is buried under the name Pepin in the tomb for French Monarchs at Saint Denis Basilica in Paris, France. The name Peppin is nothing more than the German spelling of a very French name. On the Wikipedia German Language site (Deutsch[?]), any article on Pepin written in the German language should be spelled Pippin but not in the English version.. On this matter too, User: JHK[?] contradicts the United States Library of Congress, Encyclopedia Britannica, Microsoft Encarta, the Bibliotheque Nationale de France[?], and every historian of recognizable the world who only use the French name Pepin. I note too, that the contributions by User:JHK in these matters are written in a way so as to subtly remove direct attributions to the history of France. For most people at Wikipedia, this type of carefully crafted writing goes undetected. Any domineering personality, supported by a claim to certain education credentials, can impose their views on others such as User:Zoe (or, as is possible on the Internet, the stealing of a legitimate identity). Even with legitimate education credentials, User:JHK is trying to impose an unfounded point of view or, as is not uncommon within those who have never been able to make their mark in the academic community, User:JHK is trying to establish a reputation, that in the world outside of Wikipedia, she has never been able to achieve. It’s too bad, because User:JHK might possibly be a worthwhile contributor to this worthwhile project. -- Elliot
In answer to your other accusations -- The sources you cite are all general -- presented to give a layman's overview. As a Carolingianist in particular and an Early Medievalist in general, I wrote my articles from a more expert position -- one which was at least at one time encouraged by the wikipedia. Hence, the articles reflect the opinions of the majority of scholars in the field -- Franks aren't French -- they are Germanic peoples -- which also means that they aren't German.
As for your underhanded comparison of me to the Nazi propaganda machine, it is unworthy of anyone wishing to contribute to this site. JHK
P.S. -- The reason I haven't made a mark is not because I have tried and failed, but that my Ph.D. is relatively recent, and I am not yet in a position to publish without giving up class time (and money). Not that that's any of Elliot's business. I teach at least 3 classes a quarter -- most publishing academics teach at least two courses less a year than I do.
Elliot, " Even with legitimate education credentials, User:JHK is trying to impose an unfounded point of view or, as is not uncommon within those who have never been able to make their mark in the academic community, User:JHK is trying to establish a reputation, that in the world outside of Wikipedia, she has never been able to achieve. " is a violation of our Wikipetiquette. Jimbo is taking these type of offenses seriously now so please stop the personal attacks. --mav 20:58 Mar 6, 2003 (UTC)
The Capetian reference is wonderful, because it proves my point that the Capetians made a definite propaganda attempt to coopt the CArolingians and Merovingians into their heritage -- note that the book was commissioned during the buildup of the Hundred Years' war, when England's claims to the French throne had to be denied in no uncertain terms. Whether my changes stay will reflect whether the wikipedia is in the hands of backward-thinking nationalists or forward-thinking would-be scholars who are aware of trends in the field. FOr example, did you know that many historians now see the merovingians not as part of the middle ages, but as part of late antiquity? That's a period not seen in many textbooks, but it is recognized more and more, and there are conferences, journals, etc. I doubt the Erics and Elliots will recognize it, though. JHK
Eric -- I appreciate that you have tried to make your views work. But the problem is that your assertions aren't scholarly, and don't really fit in. As an extreme example, if I asserted that most Christians in the Middle Ages believed that Jews killed Christ (which was fairly standard), it would still not justify my labeling them as murderers in an article on Christ's life (which would be totally inappropriate and untrue). Part of this being an encyclopedia is that the standard should be based on scholarship. Another is that sometimes inclusions like that of the Merovingians as French kings reinforce a belief, rather than the more complex truth. Our goal should be to illuminate and elucidate, not to reinforce commonly held opinion -- commonly held opinion is ipso facto POV, if there's nothing to back it. Oh -- and not even most French people or scholars -- it depends. I was recently at a conference where I brought up this question. Neither the French nor the German scholars thought of the Merovingians as anything but Frankish! JHK
I didn't think to the Merovingians as anything else than Frankish. And even Carolingian were not French. But the Monarchy and later the Republic accredited the idea that France begun under Clovis I. IMO this belief is historically unaccurate but important. My aim was to expose both what was popular belief in France and seems still to be official history in France (the Republic celebrated the anniversary of Clovis...) and to point out as wrong. I'm not so skilled in English and it can be unclear but the last version of the intro is IMO worse than mine. It start with : "The actual beginnings of the French monarchy are generally accepted by most qualified historians to have begun under Clovis I." that is absolutely confusing.... If you're not well informed you will spend a long time to understand that the French monarchy didn't begun with the French.... And about France as a nation I would be much more drastic thant our anonymous contributor my personnal opinion is that it begun to make sense with Joan of Arc and later with Louis XI... Ericd 02:17 23 May 2003 (UTC)
Jacques -- what is it with Canadians and the Merovingians? You all (the ones on the 'pedia) seem to be very argumentative in a way that is pretty 19th c. nationalistic. What I said is pretty representative of what historians of Medieval and Late Antique History say about France, AFAIK. WHat I know is more than the average wikipedian -- I am by profession a Historian -- my specialtiy is Carolingian. I'm fairly up on the scholarship and, if you not, I added two references to the list at the end of the French Monarchs page. ALso, as I have tried to explain many times before, most general books are talking about France in the sense of a geographical area, often following conventions that are being rethought. If one looks at two very simple criteria, I don't understand the problem. Simply put, ask yourself if the M's were French -- answer, no, they were Franks. DIfferent thing entirely, despite the fact that the name France is derived from Francia -- but then so is Franken in Germany -- surely you aren't saying that people living in Franken are French? WHat about Louis the German?
Second question -- were the M's kings of France? Answer -- no -- the Merovingians ruled several kingdoms at different times. The best-known are Austrasia and Neustria. No France. The country that is now France just didn't exist.
Now, you can ask different questions and get different answers -- Do many French people think of the Merovingians (and Carolingians) as French? Probably they do. There's even good reason, since some of them are buried in Paris (although I'm pretty sure some of the remains were translated there in the same way that saints' relics were translated -- often stolen -- in the MA -- again, Patrick Geary is a good source for this). But you know what? Germans also think of many of the same Frankish kings (especially the Carolingians) as German. I would say the same to them -- nope. This field is growing by leaps and bounds. Much of what appears on the wikipedia reflects less the comfortable conventions and more the newer trends, because that's a luxury that the medium offers. I have tried to make that clear. oh -- and a couple of other things --
I don't understand how it makes any sense to start this list with Pepin the Short. Pepin didn't found a Kingdom, he overthrough the existing King, the Merovigian Childeric III. Clovis united the Franks back in the 5th century, and although his Kingdom was divided between his successors, it was reunited by Theuderic IV. If Theuderic & Childeric were not Kings of "France" then neither were Pepin or Charlemange. A case could be made for starting the list with Charles the Bald as he was the first king of the western division of Charlemage's Empire, an entity that evoled into France, but this would leave Charlemage, one of the famous French leaders, off the list, and would leave people searching in vain for Louis I. So I say we start the list with Clovis, while making clear that niether the Merovigians nor the Carolingians were "French" as we now understand it. 65.94.49.229[?]
Starting with Pepin the Short is a) fairly standard (my Almanac does it, for instance); and b) represents the start of a new dynasty, which makes some sense. Starting with Charles the Bald would make the numbering confused, since Louis I and Charles I would not be included in the list. On the other hand, the Merovingians did not count for the purpose of numbering later French monarchs. The Merovingians are also confusing with their separate Kings of "Neustria" and "Austrasia". If it can be done clearly, though, it wouldn't be objectionable. john 07:56 25 May 2003 (UTC)
Ummm ... no, I don't think so. YOu have not done me the courtesy of reading my comments, nor of responding to my questions for exactly what you find incorrect in what I have said. As I have mentioned numerous times, I've read James and Fouracre. I also added a couple of sources to the list -- both Patrick Geary, but I could also add Edward James' The Franks to the list. Again, I debate your understanding of the context. Both of the sources you cite are using the word France in an anachronistic sense to convey to the readers that the are talking about the very early background to modern France -- that is, the History of an area defined geographically in modern terms.
You can take as much exception as you want, but insults are not going to change my mind, are not wiki-appropriate, and certainly don't demonstrate your willingness to work with others. If you can't object to specifics and give reasoned explanations as to why you think I'm wrong, then you aren't interested in a good article, just in your viewpoint. Which viewpoint is, btw, correct only in the loosest sense, but incorrect in specifics.
If you want a list of people who have ruled in the area that is now France, then the Merovingians fit in -- but so do any Gauls we can name and also a whole bunch of Romans. In this case, they are rulers of a geographic ares, but no one would call them French. But wait -- the list is of French monarchs -- and Romans aren't French! Maybe this is a differentiation worth mentioning? As I have? JHK
Dr. K (or Hemp?) would welcome the freezing of the page. She would do it herself, but that would be an abuse of her position as sysop. Jens, If you would like to do so, I support it! JHK
I don't think that there is an absolute need for a freeze. Anyone reading the talk page will quickly see the merits of JHK's argument and the lack of JD's. As a result, I, for one, am adding this page to my watchlist in order to ensure that the less simplistic version is the top one whenever I'm around. -- Derek Ross 23:13 25 May 2003 (UTC)
By training, I am a historian. This is not my period, and I'd have to take more time out to read up on it than I can reasonably spare to independantly establish the veracity of the arguments above. However, JHK's contributions demonstrate an obvious concern for detail, are polite and civilised, and have all the usual hallmarks of being those of a genuine historian. I too will keep an eye on this page. Tannin 23:17 25 May 2003 (UTC)
While I like that idea from a consistency point of view, I think that we need some sort of an explanation as part of the list article, otherwise well-meaning editors will take a look at it, say "oh, they've missed out the Merovingians!", and add them, not realising the pros and cons. So there are some benefits in having the article structured the way it is. -- Derek Ross
Well, we already have it under "List of French monarchs"...in any event, France is simply a shortening of "Francia", a term which was used at the time, no? Obviously, the meaning has changed over the centuries, but it's basically the same term, isn't it? john 00:43 26 May 2003 (UTC)
In the List of British monarchs article the adjective, "British", is used in a purely geographical sense and we have therefore included all monarchs who have ruled on the island whether British (ie Brythonic), English, Pictish, or Scottish. Perhaps we could treat the adjective "French" in the same way and make it clear that we are not using it in a political sense but merely to describe the geographical area covered by the modern state. -- Derek Ross 01:05 26 May 2003 (UTC)
Well, if it worked for an article which had to be agreed on by the Scots, the English, the Irish, the Welsh (and the Picts!), it might be worth considering! Most of the wikipedia lists have pretty straightforward criteria which can be summarised in their title but these monarch lists don't because of the time factor so I think that it's reasonable that they should be part list, part article, unlike the standard lists. -- Derek Ross 01:28 26 May 2003 (UTC)
I worked on the German Kings and Emperors page earlier. I think all of the dates are largely accurate, but it could certainly use more explanation. I do want for the dates to show clearly both the "German Kings" or "Kings of the Romans" and the actual emperors. Otherwise, any annotation would be useful. Would you like to discuss this further on the talk page for List of German Kings and Emperors? john 01:41 26 May 2003 (UTC)
um.... We can then create two lists or articles, French monarch[?] and Germanic monarch[?] (or likewise Frankish monarch[?]), where the former contains what we have here and the latter consists of the monarchs before and including Charlemagne or the Carolingians or whatever ruling entity should be sensibly determined as the first king of France. Annotations in both articles explain why such a split is necessary. kt2
I have some knowledge of European history and after reading this article, I’m not sure where the author is coming from; the opening line makes little professional. The Merovingians are certainly monarchs who all reigned over the geographical area we now call France. They ruled from Paris beginning with Clovis and are part of the chain of rulers who formed France. This is not a matter that I have ever heard being debated before; all scholars state that as a given. The Merovingian empire shrank, expanded, and changed countless times as did most all European kingdoms. However, Merovingians were always based in Paris and what Clovis controlled is basically France today. The Carolingians are on the list because they simply took over the territory of the Merovingians as did the Capetians. It is a continuous succession of rulers over the same territory, when someone actually began calling it France (or England, England), Lord knows. What I’m saying is no great revelation, it can be found in the Encyclopedia Britannica and other accurate sources including the Edward James[?] book on France and its Merovingian kings that is mentioned as a reference and the very extensive and respected Cambridge University’s Illustrated History of France that clearly outlines the Merovingians in France as part of French history and creators of the country. Triton
The Merovingians certainly were not always based on Paris. For most of the time, there were two kingdoms, Neustria and Austrasia. Austrasia didn't include Paris. Neustria, which did, was based mostly on Soissons, I thought. In any event, it was my understanding that the Merovingians were Kings of the Franks, not Kings of France. john 02:06 26 May 2003 (UTC)
If you start breaking lists into monarchs of various domains you will have so many you couldn't make sense of them for England, Italy, and others. Clovis I did what they all did for 1300 years, that is create a united kingdom. Clovis I made his capital in Paris and unless the French government archives, the Roman Catholic Church and other world scholars are involved in a coverup, Clovis and many Merovingians are buried in Paris. Every scholar I have read, does talk about a "body politic", they talk about the history of the rulers over a specific place. Hence, when referring to France, it is about the people who occupied the territory and the Merovingians certainly occupied France. Triton
First, they are buried in Saint Denis, which was not a part of Paris at the time. Second, early Medieval monarchs cannot really be said to have had a capital. Third, the Kings of Austrasia, Frankish Kings, did not even possess Paris. But in any event, the Merovingians didn't call themselves Kings of France or Kings of the French. They called themselves Kings of the Franks. Which is different. The Roman Emperors ruled over all of what is now France, but I wouldn't call them "French monarchs". The problem here is anachronism, I think. john 02:36 26 May 2003 (UTC)
The Rome comparison makes now sense. They were occupiers, the Merovingians were residents.
[1] (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=1657&tocid=0&query=merovingian&ct=)
So, if Britannica is wrong, author Edward James[?] is wrong, Cambridge U is wrong, then how come I keep finding many American universities that agree with them but not one that agrees with the theories by JHK? I thought Wikipedia contributions were subject to verification? Triton
As several posters have clearly stated above, France did not existed during the Merovingian dynasty. Burial at a specific place does not imply legitimate rule over the land. Most important of all, Merovingians only occupied part of today France. If occupants of part of an individual piece of land is defined as the ruler of the whole area, then Theodoric the Great should also be Theodoric the Great of France because his dominions included Septimania. kt2
What? France was under water? Or on Mars? NO country existed then as we know it today. Read, the above please, that issue is already clear. But hey, I'm with Britannica, and other scholars and you and Ms. K think they are all wrong. I have no problem with anyone disagreeing, so long as they back it up with proper proofs. Triton And, oh yes. You have it backwards. The Merovingian rulers of France occupied parts of present day Germany, Belgium and Holland.Triton
Merovingians occupied areas in today France, Germany, Belgium and Holland but why would they cited in Britannica and other sources as rulers of only France? It's ONLY because their domains are mostly in today France, that's it, which then leads us to another question, starting time of existence of France. My Larousse[?] clearly stated that under the entry Clovis I, Clovis Ier (465-Paris 511), roi des Francs (481/482-511) not roi de France. Under Septimania, Septimanie anc. region cotiere de la Gaule meridionale, entre le Rhone et les Pyrennees, ou se maintinrent les Wisigoths apres la battaille de Vouille (507). Elle fut reattachee au ronyaume franc en 759.
It still only mentions Frank, not France. kt2
I don't pretend to be the expert. I read what Britannica says and other scolars. And, what they say here is relative to England. We don't restrict any monarch because part of their kingdom changed. What historians are talking about is the origins of a country by the people living there. Triton
Triton, would you consider the Roman Emperors Constantius I, Constantine I, Constantine II, Julian, Valentinian I, Gratian, and Maximus, all of whom resided at Treves, in Gaul, to be "French Monarchs"? For many of them (at least at times), their rule was mostly over what is now France, and they resided in Gaul. john 03:52 26 May 2003 (UTC)
No, they are Emperors of Rome who conquered Gaul. Period. Virtually all of the Merovingians were born, lived, died, and were buried in what today we call France. The issue is not when France came to be is irrelevant, and that issue is open to much discussion because of border changes. We are talking, and I repeat, about a piece of rock, mud, water, and the like that became France, Were there rulers ever living over this area? If so were they residents of Emperors/Kings/Gods and the like who were born, lived, and died elsewhere? Or, were they living, say in Paris, raised in say, Paris, fought in say Paris, died in say Paris, and were buried in say Paris. If they did, then I think it is reasonable to call them Parisians, not Floridians. But, my question is why do you or Ms. K want to contradict Britannica and other qualified world historians. They all say Merovingians monarchs of France. If you can't accept them, I can't do more. But if you want to post to Wikipedia, please provide facts to show Britannica, Cambridge U and others wrong. Do a Googfle search and you will find all kinds of American universities that refer to the Merovingians as kings of France. Honestly, I just don't understand why this discussion even exists. Triton
Does anyone think that having this in the article gives Wikipedia credibility as an authorative source:
Forget the facts, the wording in this whole article is unworthy. Triton
Look, Gratian, Constantius, etc. were Roman monarchs who lived in Gaul, and ruled Gaul, a country which was entirely Romanized. They were certainly less foreign conquerors of it than the Franks were. Further, you seem to be saying that a "French monarch" is one one who ruled from what is now France. Was Vercingetorix, then, a French monarch? As far as Google, of the top six results for "Merovingian" five specifically do not call them "Kings of France". Several of them say they ruled over Gaul. Most of them call them "Frankish Kings". john 04:17 26 May 2003 (UTC)
"Further, you seem to be saying that a "French monarch" is one one who ruled from what is now France." - You're starting to get the idea, Mr. Ross. The same thing applies to the England, Austria, Germany, Spain because of the internal/external wars, territory lost and regained etc. I look at a map and ask myself who was King of that place in the year 500 or whenever? If they called the place Crapville and later, Mudville, and later France, I can accept that it is still France the same as I don't need Harry Trumnan, "President of the United 48 States". Defining when France (or any country) became a country is almost impossible. I have friends in Bretagne who swear they will never be French! I note the anti-France attitude of Ms. K and note that she voices no arguments over any other list of monarchs. It does make me question motivation over what to any qualified historian is a non issue. Note that Edward James, named his book "The Origins of France: Clovis to the Capetians 500-1000." ISBN: 0333270525, not "The Origins of Germany" or "The Origins of China." This title says it all, and every scholar in the world says the exact same thing. I don’t know about you, but I don’t profess to know more than these people and Britannica doesn’t toss out words without basis, that’s for sure.Triton
Yes, Edward James names his book that because he's looking at the origins of France. Doesn't mean that Clovis was a king of France. In any event, was Vercingetorix a French King? Was Cassivellaunus an English King? Was Emperor Alexius Comnenus a Turkish monarch? Was Baldwin III of Jerusalem an Israeli King? john 04:46 26 May 2003 (UTC)
Just a minor note, in EB
Take great caution of the word. Tradition is only what people used to follow, but not necessarily right. kt2
Talk:List of French monarchs/archive 2
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