Talk:List of French monarchs

Talk:List of French monarchs/archive 1

Talk:List of French monarchs/archive 2

Talk:List of French monarchs/archive 3

Talk:List of French monarchs/archive 4

Emily: Whats all this fuss I keep hearing about fresh monarchs? How long does a monarch stay fresh, anyway? Why, I saw a perfectly lovely old queen on television just the other day. She didn't look like she was at all stale. And not at all saucy! Why, you replace one country's stale old monarch with a nice fresh one and they'll all end up wanting one. And we haven't enough to go around! I say stick with our everyday monarchs! Its terrible! the way they want to...what, what?!
Chevy: Miss Litella, that was French monarchs. Not fresh. French.
Emily: Oh, well thats different.
Chevy: Yes.
Emily: Nevermind.

So, anyway, would it be okay if I change the list so it starts with Verdun? I think one thing we did mostly agree on in that mess is that starting with Pepin the Short doesn't really make much sense. john 04:55 31 May 2003 (UTC)

Go for it, John kt2

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This is the opening of a message labeled T-001 from User:Triton:

Copied from User talk:Eloquence for reference purposes:

• (Exact quote from User:Eloquence in discussion) - Specifically, the quite nice table at the UCW website [2] calls these two separate eras "The Old Frankish Kingdom" and "The Kingdom of France". Please try to work towards a compromise that takes this distinction into account, instead of making no distinction between the Frankish rulers and those who followed.

• (Response by User:Triton) - If you say that this list titled France's Kings and Rulers from the University of Washington HIST112 Medieval & Renaissance Europe Winter 2003 as found at [5] showing the two kingdoms, should be exactly what we place on the List of French monarchs at Wikipedia as a compromise that takes this distinction into account, instead of making no distinction between the Frankish rulers and those who followed, then in the spirit of cooperation, I will accept this and post the information.

Copied from: Talk:List of French monarchs/archive 4 for the purpose of responding:

• I am sorry Triton. Let me make sure I understand you. You are saying that your opinion is that this particular list should include a list of all the Frankish monarchs, as well as the French ones?

I am only trying to figure out what the problem is, because you didn't respond to any of the specific issues listed above. The article as it stands links (or should -- I will make sure) to the list on the "Frankish Monarchs" page. It explains the separation, and the contents of Professor O'Neil's list more than support the idea of separation. Could you please explain why this is unacceptable? Thanks! JHK

Reply from USER:Triton to JHK: - If you refer to the points made by Eloquence and my response to him, plus my response to an ensuing statement/set of questions regarding the List of French monarchs on this talk page (archive 4) by Ms. User:JHK immediately preceding her statement/questions above, in short it said:

• "it seems most sensible to post the list as presented by the University of Washington"
• "after someone inserts the Merovingians and does comments, I will look again when I came back and if I have questions I will leave them here on the talk page. "

Ms. User:JHK, ma'am, I don’t think anything could be more clear or precise than my reply that covered every single question you asked. However, I will gladly prepare the list as presented by the University of Washington and post it to the page. So that I do not mislead, if anyone does not want to insert Clodian, then I have no objection but I have no cause or qualifications to justify disagreeing with the University of Washington. I will even rewrite, to the best of my ability, the comments to be absolute NPOV and clarity if no one else wishes to do so as I suggested. This will take a little time as I am certainly no computer whiz. Thank you and may you have a joyful experience at Wikipedia in the spirit of User:Jimbo Wales/Statement of principles. Triton 11:12 31 May 2003 (UTC)

End of message T-001 from User:Triton:

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I have started the work to convert and edit the list from the University of Washington. It is a big job what with doing my best links and name verifications but not as much as I had first thought and as such will have it ready for posting by late today. Thank you, please. Triton 14:39 31 May 2003 (UTC)

If I have observed the somewhat messy discussion about the poor French monarchs correctly (and the most recent change on the main page), then the list should start with 943 (split of the realm with the Treaty of Verdun) and not include the Franks, correct? Just to make it clear, I think it's a good idea to differentiate between a) Frankish rulers on the one side and b) French and German rulers in two separate lines after 843. But from what I can see, this seems to be the consensus (finally). I am only asking because I am currently working on a more lucid list of the Frankish rulers; see User:Djmutex/Sandbox Frankish rulers, and I'd hate to see all the work duplicated. — djmutex 14:51 31 May 2003 (UTC)

As all can be aware from this ongoing discussion, the list to be posted under List of French monarchs is as precisely stated above from the University of Washington. If you were not party to the discussion and did not read it, then whatever editing you might do anywhere is of course your right as a Wikipedia user. It just means you will place more work on others to someday fix what might be wrong. I am dealing only, and have been for several days as detailed herein before-during-since the resolution on Clovis I, with the issue regarding what information will appear on the List of French monarchs. A separate article that deals with the various Franks or other parties who ruled over parts of what we know today as Germany is certainly a worthy task and I appreciate any efforts you make on that separate issue. Triton 15:32 31 May 2003 (UTC) --- Triton, it seems we are back where we started, because you understand the list differently from everybody else. This is why I asked the questions above very specifically, so you could have a chance to respond to what you specifically find wrong. Again, you refuse to work with anyone else; again, you refuse to make any attempt to consider anything that doesn't fit into your viewpoint. You also misrepresent what Eloquence said.

As I said above, and what, if you read what everyone else who has commented on the list but you agrees, the list says France starts with the Capetians. How can you say it should start with the Franks? JHK

Ms.User:JHK, ma'am, I am posting the list from the University of Washington. I never once said France starts with the Franks or anyone else. Thank you, may the Prophet bless you. Triton 16:48 31 May 2003 (UTC)

Can I just say that I'm absolutely confused at this point? I'm going to go add Blanche of Castile as Regent from 1226 to 1234, and hope this blows over. john 16:52 31 May 2003 (UTC)

Hey John -- which part is confusing? Triton is going to reduplicate the efforts of the people who created the varios lists of monarchs already on this site, and lift directly from a list belonging to a non-wikipedian that says what we've already said (and he disagrees with). He is then going to erase all the hard work that many others have done and replace it with a list that starts with the earliest Merovingians because they are French Monarchs, according to him and him alone, even though his list doesn't support this idea. I think it's pretty clear. If anyone disagrees with my understanding of the situation, I'd certainly like to hear why -- it would ease my mind about this project considerably JHK

Yeah, that's what I was afraid of, but I was hoping that if I ignored it, it would go away. Sigh. john 17:06 31 May 2003 (UTC)

The position on this list was very clear and I am, as stated before, proceeding on that basis. Let us make certain that this situation is dealt with exactly as was outlined previously and that we all adhere to User:Jimbo Wales/Statement of principles on any issue. These principles certainly apply here and make sense. If there is a disagreement with the intrepretation of Mr. Wales statement or my actions, it can always be taken to him. Please, thank you. Triton 17:12 31 May 2003 (UTC)

Triton, what exactly are you saying here? Could you please explain, in detail, what exactly you plan to do, and what exactly is your justification for this? john 17:16 31 May 2003 (UTC)

Now I'm really confused too. What I understand, Triton, is that you want to work on the List of French monarchs only. Fine; I am not planning to touch that page. But just to enlighten my poor confused mind, I don't understand what needs to be changed there anymore. Let me try to make clear, in simple words, what I thought was the consensus here otherwise.

1. The Franks are neither French, nor are they German. They are Franks. The Frankish kingdoms are common ancestry of France on the one hand and the Holy Roman Empire (Germany, if you want) on the other side. They do not belong on the List of French monarchs, nor do they belong on the List of German Kings and Emperors, since they precede both.

As an side, my suggestion for a new list of French monarchs, separate from both the French and German lists, is at User:Djmutex/Sandbox Frankish rulers. I'd be grateful for comments whether other people consider that new format useful.

2. I therefore find the present List of French monarchs that starts after the Verdun split of 843 wonderful. The same should be done with the List of German Kings and Emperors, which needs a merge with that other List of Holy Roman Emperors, but that's an entirely different can of worms.

As a result, I simply do not understand what you want to do now, Triton. Do you disagree with anything that I stated above? Do you want to copy the entire list from the University of Washington to the French Monarchs? That would include the Merovingians, which I thought was considered misleading in the discussion so far. If that is not what you want to do, do you want to copy the information from the list for the time after 843 only? If so, how does that differ from what is presently on the French list?

Could you answer these questions instead of globally referring to Wikipedia policies, please, which does not really help the issue? Thank you. — djmutex 17:19 31 May 2003 (UTC)

Mr.User:John, sir and all others, I am sorry if you have not been following this enough to have read everything. Your questions have already been fully answered on this page talk page and/or its predecessor pages. Thank you, and may the Prophet bless you. Now, I do have to leave Wikipedia for a short time. I believe that nothing here will render the heavens and the earth asunder, is there? Nor will my departing for a reasonable period of time on a promise to return to deal with matters be a contravention of any policy. Will it? I do note others do that, frequently. However, in this case, as all has been dealt with in vast detail on these talk pages for anyone who cares to read it, then there is nothing I can add or for anyone to question until I've completed my promised work. Thank you all again, Triton 17:26 31 May 2003 (UTC)

Wow, that was disingenuous. Good luck on your far-off mission, Triton, and may the Prophet grant peace to you and your clan. john 17:36 31 May 2003 (UTC)

The wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round ... JHK

Notice from User:Triton: As stated on 17:26 31 May 2003 (UTC) above, all questions have already been fully answered by me on this talk page and/or its predecessor pages and that I am proceedng in a clearly defined and proper manner with my work on the List of French monarchs. This work will be finished in a reasonable length of time. Further, I plan to make contributions to many articles at Wikipedia and in an attempt to cooperate fully in any discussions, I will follow Mr. Wales words who said that wikipedia will be run in accordance with his User:Jimbo Wales/Statement of principles that includes using diplomacy consisting of a combination of honesty and politeness. As such, I think that everyone would concurr that standard norms for diplomacy in debate is a straightforward one at a time question/answer format used by most all debating forums in the civilized world. With more than one party asking a question to one person, diplomacy requires each person wait their turn. In order to ensure I follow Article 1. of Mr. Wales Statement of principles, and Do The Right Thing to preserve our shared vision for the NPOV and for a culture of thoughtful diplomatic honesty, I will wait for a response to my question before considering any another. Once one reply has ben posted, should there be a question then I will reply to it, and only it. I will not attempt to answer a multitude of questions or one question from a several users. I note, that other than some vague reference in a foreign language dictionary that I cannot read, not one party to the discussion on the List of French monarchs has chosen to answer my request for credible and verifiable references to support the statements they have made. And, while I may agree or disagree, I will not respond to anyone’s unfounded opinions. They are your opinions. I recognize the right for anyone to express an opinion, but they are exactly that: your opinions. I can only respond to matters of fact. In order that everyone equally follows the orderly Wikipedia courtesy that Mr. Wales rightfully demands of all contributors, one question clearly addressed to me will receive one answer before any other questions will be considered. If anyone posts another question before I have received an answer to mine, there will be no response to you under any circumstances unless you restate the question later on in the proper participant order. Any question that includes racial or ethnic slurs, is derogatory or demeaning in any manner or in any way is less than the etiquette Mr. Wales demands, will not be answered --ever. If you believe that my interpretation of User:Jimbo Wales/Statement of principles for diplomacy within proper and honest ask/answer debate is incorrect, you can certainly take up the issue with Mr. Wales for clarification. Thank you, may the Prophet bless each of those honorable contributors to this wonderful project called Wikipedia. Triton 17:57 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)

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ATTENTION ALL INTERESTED WIKIPEDIANS!!!

In the interests of fair play and compromise, it has been suggested that there be a 'vote' for what exactly belongs on this page. Several options which have been discussed above and in the archived talk pages are listed below. Please add your name to the option you feel best, and feel free to add other options If I've left any out. Since this is more in the way of achieving compromise, more than one option may be selected. Thanks!

• Leave the page basically as it is, with explanatory introduction and lists of monarchs starting with the Carolingians:
  • Supported by: JHK, FearÉIREANN, Martin, llywrch
  • Opposed by: djmutex, john

• Leave the page basically as it is, with explanatory introduction and list beginning with Charles the Bald after 843:
  • Supported by: djmutex, john, Martin, llywrch
  • Opposed by:

• Leave the page basically as it is, with explanatory introduction and list beginning with the Capetians in 987:
  • Supported by: JHK FearÉIREANN djmutex (consistency with new List of German Kings and Emperors), john, Martin
  • Opposed by: llywrch

• Rewrite the page to include the Merovingians in the list, but still explain that there is a difference between "traditionally considered" and "actually were":
  • Supported by:
  • Opposed by:JHK FearÉIREANN djmutex, john, llywrch

• Convert the page to a list with no explanation, beginning with Clovis, broken down as per the UW list:
  • Supported by:
  • Opposed by:JHK FearÉIREANN djmutex, john, Martin, llywrch

• Convert the page to a list with no explanation, beginning with Charles the Bald in 843, but linking to the Frankish monarchs page:
  • Supported by:
  • Opposed by: FearÉIREANN djmutex, john, Martin, llywrch

• Convert the page to a list with no explanations, beginning with the Capetians and linking to the Frankish monarchs page:
  • Supported by:
  • Opposed by: FearÉIREANN djmutex, john, Martin, llywrch

Thanks in advance for your opinions JHK 20:03 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Just to explain my vote, my preference is for a list starting in 843. I think that a list showing all of the Carolingians would be inappropriate - why was Pepin I any more a "French monarch" than Clovis? Starting in 987 would be alright, as well, but I still don't like the idea of 987 as some sort of enormous breaking point. Anyway, either of those would be acceptable, so long as we explain carefully what exactly we're doing. The other options I firmly oppose. john 22:30 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I'd like to explian my vote also. While tracing the birth of the modern French monarchy with the Treaty of Verdun can be persuasively argued, I feel that an explanation is needed for the layman why certain members of the Carolingian Dynasty are excluded. (e.g., "If this is the Carolingian Dynasty, then where's Charlemagne?") Further, it is not only the layman who thinks Clovis I founded the French Monarchy: IIRC, many French kings, in expressing their right to the throne, also expressed a claim back to Clovis' reign. (For some reason, monarchs are adverse to stating their claim to rule on the pragmatic argument, "I have more soldiers than anyone else, & have physical control of these fortresses, therefore I am king." Perhaps because that argument could be used by a rival to depose him thru the accumulation of more troops, & attempting to physically dispossess the incumbent of said fortresses. ;-) I'm not aware if Wikipedia has tackled the issue of the language of state legitimacy & succession. -- llywrch 17:42 2 Jun 2003 (UTC)