< Talk:List of French monarchs
Reading and research information on the Monarchs of France and the Merovingian Kings:
Encyclopedias:
All the free men in the kingdom of Clovis, whether they were of Roman or of Germanic origin, called themselves Franks, and we must guard against the old mistake of looking upon the Franks after Clovis as no more than Germanic barbarians.
Internet info Medieval France:
Books:
Triton, you don't improve your case by repeatedly misquoting the title of James's book. Further, I very, very strongly doubt that free Romans in Gaul at the time of Clovis really called themselves "Franks". To try to engage you a little bit, is there anything that could be done to this page, short of saying that the Merovingians were "Kings of France", that would satisfy you? What if we said a) that the Merovingian Frankish Kings ruled over most of what is now France; that b) in later French monarchical tradition, the Merovingians were considered the first Kings of France; and that c) the origins of modern France are to be found in the Merovingian period; but that d) the Merovingian Kings themselves cannot genuinely be considered to be kings of France, because d1) France as such cannot truly be said to have existed until considerably later and d2) the Merovingians also ruled over much of Germany, and saw themselves as a Germanic people. Would some statement of that sort satisfy you, or not? If not, I don't see how we're ever going to come to an agreement here.
On the issue of primary and secondary sources, I tend to think that for something like the question of whether the Merovingians were Kings of France (good) secondary sources are essential. The primary sources aren't going to give you any real direct information on the question, because they didn't even think about such things, so you need to look at secondary sources to see how historians view the issue. john 23:02 27 May 2003 (UTC)
You are getting very close except saying "cannot genuinely be considered" is an inappropriate statement and we don't have it on the list of British Kings and no credible encyclopedia would use such terminology. Most people understand the title "France" or "England" didn't exist in the year 500. Our duty is to list all who ruled over what is now France something like this:
All I care is we are not out of sync, or look amateurish, to anyone visiting Wikipedia who traditionally goes to Britannica. I'm sure you would agree that if someone doing research clicked on the Encyclopedia Britannica and was told that the first French Royal House are the Merovingians then comes to Wikipedia List of French Monarchs and the Merovingians aren't on the list, we, not the credible Britannica look dumb. That type of experience for someone, quite naturally, makes all other Wikipedia articles come under question. Triton
Please clarify this statement from above: Triton, you don't improve your case by repeatedly misquoting the title of James's book.
The exact title is as I stated: The origins of France : from Clovis to the Capetians, 500-1000[?] by Edward James. Just go to Amazon.com Triton
Triton, seriously, you need to stop saying these things that simply aren't true. Encyclopedia Britannica says that the Merovingians are considered to be the first French royal house. not that they were. What it says they were is "Kings of the Franks" or "Frankish Kings". People have pointed this out to you repeatedly, and you have never yet responded to it. And the British kings comparison doesn't make any sense. Firstly, we don't say that, say, Alfred the Great was King of Britain, because he patently wasn't. He was a British King, in that he was a king on the island, then and now, called Britain. Clovis, on the other hand, was a king in the country that is now called France, but that was not called France at the time, but rather Gaul (for which see Britannica, which calls Clovis, "King of the Franks and ruler of much of Gaul from 481 to 511"). He was also a Frankish King, but the adjective "French" ought to be used to refer to a people who only came into existence in succeeding centuries by the mixture of Germanic Franks with Romanized Gauls. To keep this constructive, what if we said "are not considered by many historians to be genuinely Kings of France?" john 23:31 27 May 2003 (UTC)
P.S. you have occasionally quoted the James title correctly. You have also repeatedly tried to say that it is called "The History of France: from Clovis to the Capetians". john 23:31 27 May 2003 (UTC)
First: don't use derogatory words like "Tried to say" - that is insulting and carries the connotation of deliberate deceit. I am not the one who deleted peoples work here and their photos, nor have I called anyone a liar as Ms. K did. If I made a typing mistake, please forgive me but I wrote that title from memory each time. Note, when demanded that I provide references, my list has the title exact with the ISBN reference. Honest discussion is not filled with innuendo. Don't you agree? And if you can show one shred of dishonesty in any of my work, I will leave instantly. My good name sir, is as valued to me as I am sure yours is to you.
Second: Yes, I certainly did address the terminology "considered" but I’m too tired to repeat it. Please search for yourself in this or the Clovis I archive. And Britannica is very clear. They are stating a fact that they consider that to be true. This statement is supported (and I repeat again) by this from the further Britannica article on Clovis at http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=386306 where it states: "He (Clovis) is traditionally regarded as the founder of the French monarchy and the original French champion of the Christian faith."
Now, if this is not enough, I regret I cannot do more. But I still haven’t see one single bit of contradictory facts posted from anyone. All I see is talk that goes on and on. If anyone here has proofs to the contrary and can list the names of the many historians who support your claim that are not considered by many historians to be genuinely Kings of France they should do as was asked of me: Post their names, their writings (with ISBN), their web sites. I'd gladly check them out. Triton
Let me take some risks in stepping into a somewhat heated discussion. Without any hope of settling it. As a Frenchman, it is a little disturbing not to see the list start with Clovis. I would not say it is offending. And I like it that the topic is debated. I would prefer the list to start with Clovis though, but I do not claim to be an authority. As I understand the question, France is more a state than it is a place or a people. The question might be when does this state begin? I do not think there is any clearcut answer, which is why I would rather stick to tradition. I believe the state has existed without disruption since the treaty of Verdun. I understand 987 may be a very important moment, but several ancestors of Hugues (Robetians) were king, and when he was elected, the point was selecting a new king, not starting a new country. One might argue the Capetians are more french than the Carolingians. Maybe something wrong with having French monarchs, instead of monarchs of France. If we look before Verdun, and consider the merits of Pepin the short, or Charles Martel, it may be said that the Kingdom was united after them, while it was splitted several times before. Which make them a possible start. On the other hand, they shifted the center of power to a more german -less latin- area (austrasie) and it shifted east again with Charlemagne. In favor of Clovis, there is tradition, not numbering because no names were taken again, but it is hard to believe they would have renumbered, (well, there is Louis the pious with Ist, with Louis some derivative of Clovis, but not the same). He is not the founder of the kingdom of francks (regnum francorum I think) but the one who carved the territory to approximate Gaul and who converted to catholicism. The kingdom was splitted and reunited a few times later on, but it is rather reunited than refounded. When Pepin took over, I think it is more fair to say he took the title of king than he founded a new kingdom. So it is regnum francorum and rex francorum all along, and it goes on very late, at least in latin. All of this is from memory, subject to review. To sum it up:
Something else completely, but as this is a page where I have some chance to find french speaking persons, I take my chance : could someone there help me to tranlsate to french some law terms, for fr: wikipedia, such as common law, due process, with all deliberate speed (plenty left). Please answer that point on my page Didup 00:00 28 May 2003 (UTC) Hey, it is hard to edit this page before someone else does!
Triton: I apologize if I have made insinuations that you are being dishonest. It becomes rather frustrating to engage in argument with someone who doesn't seem to be listening to what one has to say, and repeatedly makes the same arguments that have (to my mind, at least) been refuted quite conclusively.
Getting to more substantive points, I agree with you, Clovis is traditionally regarded as the founder of the French monarchy. Britannica says that, you say that, I say that, JK says that. The question is: Was he the founder of the French monarchy? That's a harder question to get at, but Britannica certainly doesn't say he was. The Clovis article, as I pointed out, describes him as being the King of the Franks and ruler of much of Gaul, while only being considered (implicitly by later people) to be the first King of France. To my mind, this suggests that Britannica, in fact, does not view Clovis as having actually been a king of France, only to have been considered to have been one in later times.
Okay, here's a final possible compromise: The Merovingian Kings are not listed on this page. Neither are the early Carolingians. We start with Charles the Bald, as I suggested earlier. It is explained at the beginning that in French national tradition, the Merovingians were regarded as the first kings of France, that the Franks ruled over most of what is now France, and that an understanding of the origins of France is impossible without an understanding of the Merovingian period. It is then said that, however, the realm ruled by the Merovingians was very different from the later Kingdom of France as it emerged in the high Middle Ages, and that, as such, it is more appropriate to discuss the Kingdom of the Franks separately from the later Kingdom of France. That way, we don't explicitly say that they weren't kings of France, but we don't say that they were, either. I'd like other input than Triton's on these suggestions, as a compromise that satisfies Triton while pissing off everybody else isn't really worth it.
Didup: you make some sensible points about continuities and discontinuities. I agree with you that 987 is too late. I would still say that 481 (or whenever Clovis converted...) is too early. And, as you point out, the only good date in between is 843. And that's what I would argue for. Yes, the numbering for two of the Kings started earlier. But that can be explained. And I think your point about starting with Pepin as being bad is pretty well taken - it doesn't make sense to exclude Neustrian Merovingians, and then to start with an Austrasian monarch who moved the center of gravity back into Germany. ---john 00:11 28 May 2003 (UTC)
Question John: You say: "I would still say " --- based on what? Not having this encyclopedia article be based on someone's unsubstantiated theories is my whole point. Triton
When did Britain get the name Britain?Triton
Dear John, oh how I hate to write. But -- you said: I don't listen but that is how I feel about you and maybe, just maybe I have a liitle, tiny bit of an example: You said just above:
Now, John, I've cut and paste from above that you obviosly didn't read even though I bolded it: QUOTE FROM BEFORE YOUR STATEMENT:
Now, could we please list the founder of the French Monarchy on the List of French Monarchs? Triton
The list of French Monarchs has to include the founder. It should start with the Merovingians to the Carolingians and so on. Text can explain each dynasty in an appropriate manner, but if each of the monarchs bio is properly written, then I can't see how there can be any misunderstandings. It certainly cannot start at Bald Charlie and User: Didup and others like Anthere (I think without looking him up on Wikien L), Olivier, Ericd and several others expressed that it should start with the Merovingians too. (As an aside, Ms. K intimidated some of these people who either now say nothing or have left.) Triton
John, I was right about Anthere:
SURPRISE: Note this is Ms. Ks words:
Look, Triton, I'm sick of this. I'm trying to work out a compromise that everyone can agree to. Old Bald Charlie, as you call him is a fair person to start with, since he was the first King of the Kingdom which is a direct precursor to modern France. The article, in my proposed compromise, would not deny that the Frankish Kings were Kings of France, merely say that it's a complicated question, and that the Frankish kings are discussed somewhere else. It will specifically mention that they are considered, in the French monarchical tradition, to be the first Kings of France, and that they ruled over most of what is now France, and that they are an integral part in the evolution of what would become modern France. Given that it is very unlikely that you will get people to agree to include the Merovingians on this page, would such a compromise be acceptable to you?
Again, no matter how many times you repeat the titles of books, we are not going to agree to put the Merovingians on this page. Given that, I feel like this would go pretty far towards meeting a lot of your objections. And starting in 843 obviates the problem of the fact that the early Carolingian realm was obviously the same one as the Merovingian one, so that the complaint that the Carolingians are being treated differently from the Merovingians would no longer be true. Again, would this be at all acceptable, or are you going to keep arguing so long as the Merovingians aren't listed on this page?
---john 01:16 28 May 2003 (UTC)
John: If from the start, "we are not going to agree to put the Merovingians on this page", then why do you bother to discuss it? Unfortunately or fortunately, I do not accept your theories, and they are only theories. Triton
Ms. K, you love to set your self above and use words to make yourself look good to others looking in. I answered all questions, provided all info requested. No one else, including you, has done anything but talk and provided no proofs of your theories. You did nothing but delete facts, delete important photos twice, deny the existence of Wotan and on and on. And you certainly did insult and drive people away. Read your "obtuse" - "Misrepresenter" - "Liar" name calling on talk Clovis I. I will not allow you to intimidate me. None of your input does a thing to back up your theories. Now, please make a list of French monarchs starting at the Merovingians with proper expanations, not theories or "I'll allow" or "of course they are not really". Please use dignity in an encyclopedia and I will gladly assist and work with you in a professional and cordial manner subject to your apology for the improper deletions and remarks about my work. Triton
Well, I’m very tired. Please set up the List of French monarchs as per tradition with the Merovingians first then the Carolingians etc. all of coursde with proper explanations. As soon as you or someone digs up credible rebuttals then by gosh, let’s change this sucker fast.Triton
This isn't about compromise or about making people happy - especially not banned ex-users, who are not entitled to any consideration - it's about getting things as right as we can possibly get them. Seems to me that John is making a good deal of sense, and that most (all?) legitimate contributors agree with the thrust of his suggestions. Is it time to unprotect the page now so that John (and others) can make the changes?
Triton/DW, please remember that you are a banned ex-user, and were responsible for making it necessary to protect the page in the first place. People have tolerated your presence here on the talk page, but will not tolerate you editing the main page directly. If you have anything to contribute, then do it here on the talk page. If - and only if - you can persuade others to support a proposed change, then those others are at liberty to implement it. Implement it yourself, Triton/DW, and you'll be reverted; if need be, the page can be protected again. So here is a new challenge for you, which I trust you will find both novel and stimulating: in order to influence the page, you are going to have persuade people to make the changes you recommend, which in turn will doubtless require that you practice the unfamiliar art of being pleasant and cooperative. Think of it as a learning experience. Tannin 01:53 28 May 2003 (UTC)
To the User logged in calling himself Tannin - refrain from accusations unless you have proof. If I am a banned user that you call DW or whatever, please present your proof to Mr. Wales and he will certainly investigate. If you have no proof, it is best to show good manners and talk with respect to all. I think that is what Mr. Wales said, didn't he? Thank you, and have a lovely evening improving the content of Wikipedia. Triton
Dear MR. Owens: Perhaps you should read the page. Of course, we have no way of knowing where you come from so this might be a cultural thing. I'm one who thinks calling people names and their sincere contributions as nonsense is not the conduct Mr., Wales said he demands of contributors at Wikipedia. Particularly when they have to turn around and admit the "nonsense" was fact. But again, with your expertise here, and the outstanding knowledge you possess, it could ewell be my cultural background that makes me see things differently. If so, and I have offended you, Mr. Owens, sir, I am indeed sorry. Have a good evening and may the Prophet bless all your sincere endeavors. Triton
Oh no! Did someone accidentally delete the page? Me and a few friends who want to do good work at Wikipedia always download certain pages to enjoy the valuable content until the day comes when we have it on the CD that Mr. Vibber is hoping to have. I'll check to see if the page is still there, if not I'll check my downloads and see if I have it. Thank you for being so concerned. I greatly appreciate someone as esteemed as you, wanting to make sure there is no violation of Mr. Wales courtesy rules. It is amazing how some people will communicate with another and say horrific things about other Wikipedia users. Bless you John Owens, you are fine man indeed. I'm proud just to be on the same website with a man of your caliber. Now, Mr. Owens, sir, I'll check for you. Triton
Huh? I'm not too swift on all this computer stuff. Yes, Ms. K deleted my photo then after Mr. Vibber posted the proper notice that is was indeed a vaid copyright-free photo, poof! she deleted it again. But Mr. Owens, sir. By gosh, the page is there! Although, I had a copy anyway. You can go read it for yourself. Of course, as I said, perhaps calling someones erstwhile efforts as "Obtuse", "misrepresenting" and "lies" or deleting stuff, calling it nonsense when it was fact, is just my cultural background not understanding that that is really nice behaviour the way Mr. Wales insists on. And Sir? Thank you again for your concern. Sure look forward to assisting you any way I can. Just call on me anytime. Triton
There you go,Mr Owens, sir. Ms. K gave some of it to you that you couldn't find on the page. But I'll paste it again below. Now, if she would just straighten out the deleting of my photo twice and calling my input on Clovis I as nonsense then oops. I was right. Gosh, pooor old Wotan was rolling in hisd skygrave or wherever the Germanic tribes kept their gods. Of course there are a few other little deletions called nonsense, but why labor on the point. Thank you again, sir. I hope this has clarified things. Now, will you be telling Ms. K to refrain from these comments or is it me just not understanding? Triton
Shoot, I apologize. I forgot to paste Ms. Ks words as promised. But, I am so confused. Mr. Owens, how is it she was logged out while she deleted a picture? Is that possible on the Wikipedia program? Triton
Now, Ms. K, you are using all your smartness to confuse me. And oh, I don't use "hell" when addressing someone because in my culture that is swearing and very impolite and Mr. Wales insists we not do that. Now, let's figure out the photo. You deleted it; I asked why but you never replied. Mr. Vibber then appeared and asked me to prove its copyright-free status. I did immediately and Mr. Vibber posted the appropriate notice that indeed the photo was perfectly legal. As soon as I saw his notice on "Recent Changes", I followed proper procedure and replaced the photo. Then, Ms. K ignored Mr. Vibber's notice and deleted it again. Yes Sir, that's two deletions, the second after Mr. Vibber had gone to all that work. Then, I pointed out this second deletion to MR. Vibber and THEN MR. Fred Bauder was kind enough to reinsert it for everyone at Wikipedia to enjoy. Now, did I satisfactorily explain it? If not, please let me know sir, and I will do everything in my power to clarify it. Boy, I still think it's pretty amazing that Ms. K could delete a photo while being logged off. WOW! Computers sure do incredible stuff. Now, good night all and please have a joyous visit at Wikipedia. Thank you again for all your help. Triton
If I'm "rude, obstinate, and overwhelmingly snide and insulting", please advise Mr. Wales immediately as he will not tolerate that kind of behavior. And what wes the "not without some trouble, I'll remind you" about the copyright issue. Check with Mr. Vibber, I acted on his request instantly and gave him my total cooperation and within minutes provided all the information he needed. FULL, FACTUAL LEGAL, PERFECT IN ALL RESPECTS. So now, Wikipedia has a gtreat source for maps and you have a real Professor of History at Fordham to learn from. Of course I might not be telling the truth? Or you aren't? Perhaps the records and Mr. Vibber will reveal the truth? Want to have Mr. Wales examine if I was uncooperative or abusive, or uncivil? Oh yes, in my culture we don't call someone's erstwhile efforts as "nonsense" and then, what was it tonight? Oh yes, "ridiculous." And, in my culture when we are wrong, we apologize, admit our mistake, and move on in the spirit of harmony. Triton
Please people. All this off-topic talk is misdirecting valuable time and energy that could otherwise be put into creating more content for the encyclopedia. --mav
Talk:List of French monarchs/archive 4
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