Talk:Isaac Asimov

After writing the original Foundation Trilogy, Asimov abandoned the story, and didn't come back until the 1980s, where a considerable monetary offer from the publishing house was his main incentive (or at least so he tells in the Preface to the book). In this and later books, Asimov tries to bind together in a coherent whole a great deal of his fiction output, creating a future history of humanity.

... but creating rather sloppy and contrived joins between his older books, in the opinion of many readers. I think Asimov's Mysteries deserve some sort of a mention too. -- Tarquin

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Resolve Martian Way link as it provides a route back to McCarthyism. Alan Peakall 17:55 Oct 25, 2002 (UTC)

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If Nightfall is so wellknown why have most people never heard of it and, unlike other Asimov writings, it doesnt even have an article? Vera Cruz

Nightfall is one of the most famous science fiction short stories ever. I am sorry you have never heard of it. Rmhermen 17:57 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

That is immaterial...it is pov to say such and such is the most famous, especially when he has a number of clearly famous writings. Vera Cruz

I suspect that most people who have heard of Asimov are more likely to have heard of I, Robot or Foundation more than Nightfall. but the first is a book of short stories, and the second is a series of books, so I don't think it's incorrect to say that Nightfall is his most famous single story. It seems ludicrous to have an edit war over such an issue, if another editor comes along and suggests some other story is more famous then it might be worth of debate. I suppose books sales could confirm or deny the fact, but it seems appropriate to bow to the experience and knowledge of Tarquin, Rmhermen and Tannin on this issue. Mintguy

Why would it seem appropriate to bow to pov? Vera Cruz

Stop being silly, Lir. Unless it's contested, it's not POV. --Eloquence 18:10 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

Uh, not that I want to but in, but: I do not entirely agree with Eloquence that something is NPOV unless it is contested. I do agree that it is NPOV if there is a consensus, but I think VC is asking for evidence of that consensus which is fair. I believe that IA himself wrote somethere that Nightfall was either the most widely reprinted of his stories, or the one most often refered to in fan letters, or something like this. Surely, such a quote form IA would make this part of the article stronger. So: Does anyone know what I am talking about? If anyone has any of the various collecxted stories of IA in which he wrote introductions or afterwards (I do not) could you please check and see if he wrote anything to this effect? Thanks, Slrubenstein

Something like that would be nice, but could be very hard to find, and shouldn't be required. If Nightfall is his most famous short story, then lets just say so. That's not being un-neutral, that's just stating the way things are. --Camembert

You're kiding, right? You say , "if Nightfall is his best story," and that "if" is what all this discussion is about. How do we know that it was his most famous? This is not a trivial question. Slrubenstein

I did not say anything about it being his "best" story. If the article had claimed that it was his best story, then I'd agree such as statement is inappropriate. I'm talking about it being his most famous, which is a different thing. And I'm not kidding. What about a statement like "The most famous person called Beethoven ever to have lived was the composer, Ludwig van"? Is that neutral? I think it is. It's certainly true. Can I prove it is true? Probably not without a lot of money and a big team of market reseachers - maybe there's a tremendously popular Russian footballer called Sergei Beethoven. I agree it's better to give some backup to these things where possible, but I don't think it's useful to demand such backup and remove such statements without it unless there is some evidence that the statement in question isn't true (and there doesn't seem to be any evidence in this case). --Camembert

The frontpage of the official site doesnt mention Nightfall, although it does mention Foundation and I Robot several times.

But somebody already said that I Robot and Foundation are not short stories, so I don't see what relevance that has. -Camembert

Nightfall was included in the the anthology Scinece Fiction Hall of Fame, which was compiled by a vote of the Science Fiction Writers of America. (Or whatever it is called: I have the book at home, & I'm at work, where I'm not supposed to be surfing the web.) I'd say that justifies stating "Nightfall" is the most famous story he has written. -- 134.134.136.1[?]

The issue at hand is whether Nightfall is Asimov's best-known short storry. This is quite a claim and should be supported with evidence. I got the following off of someone's webpage, using a google search:

OK, here we have the big "N". Asimov was always befuddled by this story’s enormous success, and I must confess to sharing his befuddlement. It’s among his most popular stories, it’s been turned into a so-so novel (see Nightfall) and a horrible movie, it’s been satirized in a Maureen Birnbaum story, it was voted the best sf story of all time in more than one poll—but it’s far from Asimov’s best. Sure, it’s his best prior to about 1945 (which isn’t saying much), and one of his better stories of his career—but I would rate quite a bit higher—"The Mule", "And Now You Don’t", "The Last Question", "The Ugly Little Boy", "The Dead Past", "Evidence", "The Bicentennial Man" to name a few off the top of my head.

Clearly, whoever wrote this does not think Nightfall is Asimov's best or best-known story. But this mini-review does acknosledge that several polls name it as the best, and that it was enormously popular according to Asimov himself. This is not the evidence I would want to include in the article to support the claim, but for VC and all other doubters, take this as an indication that the claim that Nightfal iss Asimov's most famous is at least a plausible claim. Slrubenstein

It's clear he doesn't think it's his best, but the article didn't make such a claim that I'm aware of. I doesn't seem to bring up the question of what his most famous story is (beyond recognising this as "among the most famous", which doesn't say much one way or the other).

A quick web search for Nightfall reveals such lines as: "widely considered the best science fiction short story ever" and "y early April, he finished the story, titled "Nightfall", and the history of science fiction was changed forever. With "Nightfall," Asimov triggered a spark of awareness in the publishing community that science fiction could be more than Buck Rogers comic books."

Also "Nightfall is widely considered Isaac Asimov's first literary success. As Isaac Asimov recalls in the preface of his short anthology Nightfall and Other Stories, "The writing of 'Nightfall' was a watershed in my professional career ... I was suddenly taken seriously and the world of science fiction became aware that I existed. As the years passed, in fact, it became evident that I had written a 'classic'." Asimov himself republished Nightfall at least seven times and expanded it into a book with Siverberg. Rmhermen 18:31 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

I have no objection to "among his most famous stories" or "argued to be his most famous story" but "is his most famous" is nothing but POV, at the very least try to use, "his best-selling story". Vera Cruz

POV isn't a synonym for opinion if the opinion is the consensus. If the consensus opinion is that it IS his most famous story (as it certainly appears to be) then what the hell are you getting so het up about? Mintguy

Mintguy, if someone is getting worked up about this, then by definition there is no consensus! Slrubenstein

I meant consensus of informed opinion. not a Wikipedian who can give no opinion of an alternative story. Mintguy

It's not so much POV as it is careless writing, making an unproveable statement. Such wording as "one of the most ... " is almost always better than saying "most" "first" "best" "least" and other superlatives. Better to stick with comparatives. In a case like this, however, it might be even better not to make such a fuss.Ortolan88

Basically, I agree with Ortolan. In any case, it's not worth arguing this much over. --Camembert

I think it makes a lot of sense for an encyclopedia article to be clear about evidence and attribution -- sentences like, "according to x, Asimov's most famous story," or "according to y, Asimov's best story." Slrubenstein

Why are we even wasting time over this? VC has managed to turn a non-issue into a page of debate, and even has a few of us semi-convinced! Talk about trolling! -- Tarquin 20:00 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

Talk about your POV regarding how famous something is...Vera Cruz

Vera, I have already asked you what the opposing POV, if any is: for the 2nd time, what is his most famous short story, according to you? And, according to who else? It's not enough to be a lone nutcase (TM). I can claim my POV is that Asimov was a bug-eyed space monster, it's still not going to make it into the article. You are wasting people's time. Either grow up or get lost. -- Tarquin 20:18 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

You continue to refrain from posting any sources to augment your assertation that the best-known work by Isaac Asimov is Nightfall[?]. Vera Cruz

Do you have sources for his date of birth? Because if not, let's remove them!!! The nightfall thing is not MY assertation. It was there long before you decided to wade in and muck around. You plainly do not understand what we are trying to do here; you don't understand what NPOV is, you've elsewhere been accused of not understanding what is suitable material for an encyclopedia. The question is: are you doing this on purpose to annoy people, or are you genuinely confused? Since any attempt to try and explain matters to you leads to irritation and circular arguments, a growing body of Wikipedians are tending towards the former. -- Tarquin 20:31 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

Getting upset? Unfortunately, POV has no place here. It is an opinion that Nightfall is the most famous. Thank you for your threats and insults, they greatly increased the validity of your position. Plz call me a troll again, that way nobody will take me seriously and you won't have to actually discuss the issue. Vera Cruz

How do you propose we measure and quantify "fame"? We could write "widely held to be his most famous", but really, that just sounds insipid. Again -- you do not understand what the NPOV policy actually means. -- Tarquin 20:42 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

How about "perhaps his most famous..."? It's what I used on the Larry Niven page. I don't think it really matters, except that I happen to agree with Ortolan's point above that we should avoid sweeping statements without proof. Short of polling everyone in the world, we should hedge. For the record, I think that his "The Last Question" is at least as famous as "Nightfall". -- DrBob 20:57 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

Indeed... Vera Cruz

How does one measure and quantify fame? No wonder I deleted the statement as POV! If you would like to speak about books sold or profits earned, that is one thing, but I doubt you or anyone else has ever done a global polling of who is familiar with what story by Asimov. Vera Cruz

Try Google. It gives a good impression of awareness when the titles are reasonably unique. --Eloquence 20:56 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

So you want the article to say, "According to Wikipedia's interpretation of Google's raw data, Asimov's best known story was Nightfall?" Vera Cruz

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Everybody agrees that "Nightfall" is the most famous writing of Asimov.

Ericd

But obviously everybody doesn't...

Everybody agrees except VC who can't give an alternative. Mintguy

Not so! The title rings only a vague bell for me, too, to be honest, and I've read a few dozen short stories by Asimov. No, seriously! Admittedly I haven't got a very good memory, but even so... I'd have guessed "The Bicentennial Man", myself. Maybe which story is most famous depends on one's nationality, age group, and so on. It would depend on what books were being talked about during one's youth, and so on. And, oh look! I've just got an e-mail from my brother. He says "The Bicentennial Man" too. Independent confirmation. ;) Can't we just say, "His best-known stories include..."? -- Oliver PEREIRA

In fact, if I may interject, I completely disagree that "Nightfall" is famous at all. There is no doubt in my mind that "I, Robot" or "Foundation" would come much ahead of "Nightfall" in any poll of the general population. Quoting a magazine article or similar bragging about how Nightfall is great is one thing, but asserting that it's most famous is patently false. Loisel 21:18 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

As I already stated. I robot is a book of short stores and Foundation is a series of books. Mintguy

so? Dividing his books into categories based on length and then by popularity is a ridiculous notion. Vera Cruz

Dude, anything in the Foundation trilogy or the Robots trilogy would come ahead of Nighfall. Loisel 21:24 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

Also hold on a minute mr wiseguy, the first book in the trilogy is in fact called Foundation. Loisel 21:28 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

Yes I agree, my guess is Foundation would come out on top. Vera Cruz

Uncle Ed's compromise

his perhaps best-known story is "Nightfall" (1941), which is described in Bewildering Stories, issue 8, as one of "the most famous science-fiction stories of all time"

Now see how that is NPOV...? Vera Cruz

It meets the NPOV criteria, if (and only if) no one disputes that Bewildering Stories called it "one of the most famous, etc." Just like an article about any of several recent U.S. Republican presidents could say: "many people regard him as having caused irreparable damage to the world". The Wikipedia wouldn't be labelling him as a damage-doer; rather, it would report that many people consider him a damage doer. This is a key point, and can be used to "unlock" many future situations where Wikipedians feel locked into an edit war. --Uncle Ed

"His best-known story" is superior to "his perhaps best-known story" in every case save where actual and reasonable doubt exists. It is important not to cave into pig-headed idiocy from a known and deliberate troll. By insisting on removing an informative and non-controversial statement, we would be (by a very small but measurable amount) reducing the quality of Wikipedia. Despite having read a great deal of science fiction in my misspent youth, I couldn't care less about which which is Asimov's most famous short story. I do care about the quality of Wikipedia articles, and about the deliberate waste of large amounts of my time, your time, and the time of many other useful contributors who could be doing edits of real value instead of responding to this idiocy, which is merly the most recent of a long, long series of mindless trolls. Tannin 21:32 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

PS: Loisel: the other works you mention are indeed more famous, but they are not short stories. Tannin

• Tarquin you are very rude. Vera Cruz

• • Vera, since you're replying beneath Tanninns text, I wonder if you've got the two of us mixed up. (I do too. I skim-read Recent Changes and when I see "Tannin" in the list I think "when did I edit that?"...) But anyway ... it seems Tannin and I both think you're a pig-headed idiot. And I suppose that makes us both rude ;-) -- Tarquin 23:26 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

I Robot is made of several short stories. Ericd

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I haven't followed the entire discussion in detail, but I do observe that Nightfall is mentioned in the article twice. The first mention seems fine, the second mention seems out of place and a duplicate somehow. - Why not remove the second mention? -- SGBailey 22:08 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

I agree with you. Ericd