Second: What were they complaining about? - "Many complaints by Danzigers to the League of Nations for 20 years were completely ignored." --rmhermen
While Danzig was called a free state , it was in reality not free anymore. H. Jonat
Don't really understand the relevance of the links -- they don't add any substantive information to the article. JHK
Which links are those? --DavidSaff
Emperor gave Danzig to Teutons Hah! Emperor gave POLISH city to Teutons. (!) "Poland imediately began to build military installations. Danzigers objected to Poland's military use of now severed German lands for ammunition depots etc during Poland's war of conquest against Soviet Union in 1922. These offensive measures along what became known as the Polish Corridor, included Danzig harbor and Danzig surroundings , Westerplatte, and Gdynia (German Gdingen). They served as a mobilization sites for the Polish military. For nearly 20 years Danziger burgers filed repeated protests with the League of Nations. They were continously dismissed. " Jezus Christ, why i feel like reading nationalist German propaganda? When i will read here that it was Poland which caused WWII? szopen
I always thought that Danzig, that is Gdansk, was build by first Piasts in order to secure their conquests in Pomerania. Founding a city in 1240 was merely giving new set of rights to already existing city. I think i will add, soon, when i'll have some time for searching in library, some data about abusing rights of Polish minority in Free State of Danzig, constant antiPolish attitude of government, custom war... Plus, of course, some data from earlier history- massacre of Danzig population by Teutons, history of Gdansk in Poland in XV- XVIII century e That article isn't quite NPOV. It is in fact written fro m almost exclusively German point of view. szopen
It would be worth mention that most probably Danzig was founded by Polish Piasts as military outpost. Or that it was part of Poland and was conquered by Teutons (when they were asked for help, they came, helped, and refuse to leave) who massacred majority of earlier inhabitabts (althoiugh number of 10.000 is exaggeration)
Danzig was not in Prussia, but in Pomorze. Emperor couldn't gave Teutons something he wasn't in his posession. This was christian, Polish city, belonging to Poland. Pope in few sentences ordered giving back Danzig to Poland.
Teutons where far away from Turks, Mongols or Tatars and their funding had nothing to do with them. Genghis Khan was already dead when battle of Liegnitz took place. I've first time heard that Tatars came to Berlin, i've always read that after battle of Liegnitz they returned (since this weren't really big or important army, this was only diversion, since main Mongol goal was Hungary)
Nothing is mentioned about rights of Polish minority in Danzig, about killing and maltreting of Poles.
War against Soviet Union was war of independence, not of conquest.
And the rest is... sounds like if i heard again Hitler accusation in 1939. szopen
Prussia was "christianized' from the east. (First Poland tried, was repelled several times by Prussians). Then Baltic Crusades or Northern Crusades against Prussia, Livonia, Lithuania. Archbishop of Riga was then head over the four bishoprics of Prussia (by order of William of Modena, papal legate). Riga was under Visby, Gotland. Posen or Poznan was til circa 1250 under Magdeburg. Before the Polanen received ducal title from emperor , they were part of Czech .(Czech and Lech)Czech and Polish dukes, kings all pledged allegiance to emperors for the land they held in lien (on loan)
Mieszko and Boleslaw were margraves of the empire ( married to Saxons).
Later Polish kings all were married to Habsburgs, Vasas ( Austria, Sweden were part of empire) Archbishop of Krakow (a Hanseatic League city was a prince of the empire. And "Polish " kings continued pledging allegiance to emperors, either by pledge, marriage or as members of the order of the "Golden Fleece". (Catholic Counter-reformation). From circa 1695 to 1768 ? Electors of Holy Roman Empire , Saxony were also kings of Poland.
They probably did not put too much emphasis on all these facts in your country during the communist regime.
With your last statement about Hitler, perhaps you can explain to me the Polish leader Rydz Smygly( can't remember exact spelling) , who in March 1939 had a portrait of himself painted riding through the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin taking over Germany. What explanation do you have for that ?
What is your explanation of the expulsion of hundereds of thousands of Germans from Polish Corridor starting after 1919 and of the 50 thousand of these (ethnic) Germans from the Polish Corridor in summer 1939, herded on a death march by Polish neighbors( recorded as Bromberger Blut Sonntag (Bromberg Bloody Sunday)?
In 997 AD, a group of soldiers sent by Boleslaw I Chrobry, duke of the newly created Poland, accompanied by St Adalbert of Prague, ventured north to the Baltic Sea coast near Gdansk. One of the goals of this mission was to convert the heathen; another was most likely to bring the area under the control of the Duchy of Poland.
As "Gdansk" proper, the city was founded in 1240 when the Hanseatic League was granted the right to build a city by the Emperor. The wider area was at the time under the control of the dukes of Pomerelia. When their line died out, the territories around Gdansk passed into the hands of the Margraves of Brandenburg.
In 1308, the emperor gave Gdansk to the Teutonic Knights to govern, along with their other territories in Prussia, Livonia, Kurland[?] and Estonia. This created a continous stretch of land under one government, able to withstand the various onslaughts of Mongols, Tatars, and Turks. The forces of Ghengis Khan[?] came all the way to Legnica in Silesia and to Brandenburg, the area of the modern city of Berlin, where they were finally repelled by Gotthardt von Brandis.
In 1440, Gdansk joined the Hanseatic Cities of Elblag and Torun to form the Prussian Confederation. The Prussion Confederation (Preussische Bund) had to appear before the emperor Frederick III Habsburg in behalf of their case against the Teutonic Knights.
More info needed here.
Taw -- if the names and dates are wrong, please FIX them, not delete... The article needs to be more than just modern Gdansk, and Danzig was a major city. There's no need to escalate the Polish-Prussian conflict ;-)
I give up. Taw is willing to deface the page forever to support his view that the name of the city in 1944 was "Gdansk" even though the rulers called it something different. How he thinks this is NPOV is a mystery to me. GregLindahl
City was Gdansk up to 1939, when it was conquered by Nazis. --Taw
Proposal: $history_of_city =~ s/Gdansk|Danzig/the city/g --Taw
Just ran a simple copyedit--things like "its," "burghers," and the use of articles. I don't think I touched any of the controversial matters here.
Having done that--"came under Polish administration by Stalin" is weird enough English that I'm not sure what it's trying to say, let alone whether it's accurate or NPOV. Can whoever wrote that sentence please clarify? --Vicki Rosenzweig
To the Under Polish administration" by Stalin see : Potsdam Agreement,..all land east of the Oder and Neisse rivers (Oder/Neisse Line) was taken over military by Soviet Union and allied communists. The Soviets "gave" a part of Germany (Deutsche Reich) to Poland and this was officially called : "Under Polish administration , until a peace treaty."
The most northern part of Germany (Deutsche Reich) was taken and kept by Soviet Union and is now known as "Oblast Kaliningrad" ( The area of northern East Prussia including Koenigsberg .
Stalin kept the Ukraine to the Curzon line, which was proposed to be Russia after WW I. Poland however did not adhere to this Curzon line and instead attacked Soviet Union after WW I and conquered part of Ukraine. Poland kept part of Ukraine until Stalin took it back.
Copy of some articles of the "Potsdam Agreement"
B. WESTERN FRONTIER OF POLAND. In conformity with the agreement on Poland reached at the Crimea Conference the three Heads of Government have sought the opinion of the Polish Provisional Government of National Unity in regard to the accession of territory in the north 'end west which Poland should receive. The President of the National Council of Poland and members of the Polish Provisional Government of National Unity have been received at the Conference and have fully presented their views. The three Heads of Government reaffirm their opinion that the final delimitation of the western frontier of Poland should await the peace settlement.
The three Heads of Government agree that, pending the final determination of Poland's western frontier, the former German territories cast of a line running from the Baltic Sea immediately west of Swinamunde, and thence along the Oder River to the confluence of the western Neisse River and along the Western Neisse to the Czechoslovak frontier, including that portion of East Prussia not placed under the administration of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics in accordance with the understanding reached at this conference and including the area of the former free city of Danzig, shall be under the administration of the Polish State and for such purposes should not be considered as part of the Soviet zone of occupation in Germany.B.
H. Jonat
Much as I dislike Stalin and all his influence on the 20th century, I don't think it is a good idea to characterize all eastern bloc actions as Stalin + verb. If it was under the Potsdam Agreement is was mutually agreeable (however agreed upon) by the Allies, not just Stalin dictating terms.
And who knows what the Russian version actually says. It would be interesting to find that out. Not that it makes any difference, because Stalin read it the way it best suited him .
(He did offer to Germany all of Germany back ( that is the Eastern Provinces under Polish administration ) but only if all Western Germany would have gone under the Soviet sphere. Adenauer and the Western occupation Forces declined that. At least that is what I gather now.)
I will change it to Soviets. H. Jonat
Before that there was a city named Danzig .
Whichever way you want to formulate that, is fine with me .
My earlier references to several different ways of spelling ( common for all German language cities and names) was inserted with the purpose to clear the strange references). That can also be edited. H. Jonat
To MichaelTinkler in reference to the legal name and status please read my text I inserted in Gdansk starting with 1965 letter by Polish bishops. HJ
I notice that you (and a lot of other people -- I'm not saying you are the only person) don't go onto the articles on philosophy or math, or the sciences and argue your opinion, and I ask myself, "why not?" The self-evident answer is that most people don't feel comfortable arguing with "experts" in those areas -- and we have people who are experts! So what is it that changes this rule when we talk about history? Just as a trained doctor may not know all the latest stuff on every specialization, but he still has the training to make generally sound medical judgements. Some of us have the training in history and how to approach it equivalent to a doctor's training in medicine. You wouldn't argue with a doctor -- so why do you feel that you have any grounds to argue when a trained historian says that your approach is invalid as far as writing history (which is what you are attempting to do) is concerned? Think about it, please. Your continued arguments against and willful ignorance of historic method is not resulting in good articles -- just generating a lot of debate. JHK
Who knows WHAT this said before revision:
In fact, I think that you don't really understand the philosophy of the wiki world. All contributions are welcome. there is no rule except the will to do something together (and not only with experts or graduate people).
fred
cite from here (http://www.domnasz.freeserve.co.uk/conflicts/conf02.htm):
later Polish forces (mainly Hungarians under Bekiesz) defeated Gdansk forces close to Elblag. However Polish army was unable to take Gdansk, Russia attacked from east, so king and Gdansk agreed to compromise (Gdask paid 200.000 zlotych plus 20.000 for rebuilding monastery in Oliva, apologised king, agreed to still paid "palowe", Batory confirmed Gdansk's privileges).
The country of Polanie was never the part of Czech. It was independent since about 2nd half of 9th century. But the country of another Polish tribe, Wislanie, had been conquered by Czechs in the end of 9th century. Polanen dukes haven't received ducal title from emperor, or anybody. Also every Polish king was crowned with the agreement of pope, not emperor.
"...who in March 1939 had a portrait of himself painted riding through the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin taking over Germany. What explanation do you have for that ?"
Have you ever heard about propaganda??? Polish government have known about German "proposal" of giving Germany Polish Corridor since 1938.
"Stalin kept the Ukraine to the Curzon line, which was proposed to be Russia after WW I. Poland however did not adhere to this Curzon line and instead attacked Soviet Union after WW I and conquered part of Ukraine. Poland kept part of Ukraine until Stalin took it back."
Yes, Poland attacked first, becouse the Polish army couldn't wait and give Soviet Army chance to be strengthen. Polish Chief of State Jozef Pilsudski wanted to create independent Ukraine and maybe Belarus and Lithuania, becouse he belived that this countries would protect Poland from Soviets and would be good allies. He had made an agreement with Ukrainian chief Semen Petlura. Polish and Ukrainian troops attacked together and conquered Kiev, but after Soviet offensive Pilsudski had to sign a peace treaty in Riga without possibility of creating Ukraine. --swPawel
Pawle,
keep in mind that talk pages are for _making encyclopedia articles better_. Although sometimes it is hard to resist to some statements, it's not really helping improvement of articles of arguing with old comments (how old are they? some half of year now?)
moreover, it is not true that all Polish kings crowned with approval of pope, not emperor. Two Polish kings at least were crowned with approval of emperor, namely Waclaw (someone, i can't remember his number) and his son. Usually in our tradition they are either omitted or treated like occupiers, but they were Polish kings, who BTW did much to reform Polish administration (e.g they introduced office of starosta into Little Poland, which proved later so useful that later it was also introduced into other parts of Poland) szopen
Space Cadet
Space Cadet !!! You seem spaced out again !!! H. Jonat
The City of Gdansk was chartered in 1224 -- um, is the name on the charter Gdansk or Danzig? If I understand the history correctly, it's Danzig. I also don't think the phrase Gdansk is called Danzig in German is correct -- today, I suspect that most Germans call Gdansk Gdansk. -- GregLindahl
Space Cadet messed the article Gdansk up completely on Jun24, while claiming to have re-installed Vicki's version. He was made aware by Zow[?] and by my comment. I waited for him to correct Gdansk, but he did not. I corrected it today ,June27., but shortly thereafter # 166.90.231 did the same thing, messing it all up, like Space Cadet did on June,24. I now assume that he/she (#166.90.231), perhaps both (#166... and Space Cadet)are committing deliberate vandalism. H. Jonat
I had reverted it assuming vandalism again from H. Jonat, otherwise known as 66.47....
I did not mess anything up! Just did some research and entered the information that I found. Vicki came after and did some constructive editing, for which I am grateful. Then you came back, deleted all my entries and put back your unchanged stuff. I re-entered Vicki's version of which I notified her (common courtesy, unknown to you). Your "comment" did not make me aware of anything, because it did not contain any information, just an insult. Of course, I do appreciate that rather than calling me a Commie, like you used to, you suggest a mental sickness. Now you're also calling me a vandal. Thank God, no Slavic tribes are used as a synonym for "mindless ruiners".
I (and others) spent a lot of time re-entering info messed up. In the process I also corrected some of the false info , such as the ficticious claim etc. Anyway, the person # 166.90.231 did the vandalizing.
Spacing out = does not indicate a mental sickness, just that you are ...off in thoughs,... off in orbit, like your ficticious name indicates. No need to throw you Commie and Slavic remarks around. Anyway I suggest, when you change some text, take the time and look at it, after it is saved, to be sure that you do not leave it messed up as on Jun 24.
"Brandenburg's fictitious claim to the Gdansk Pomerania was based on a treaty between Waclaw III and the Brandenburg which took place on August 8, 1305, promising the Misnia (Meissen) territory to the Czech Kingdom in exchange for the Gdansk Pomerania. The claim was fictitious, because the Czech king Waclaw III had no right to Pomerania and Brandenburg never ceded Misnia to the Czechs."
What's false in this info, can you be specific?
If, by messed up you mean "not the way you like it", then I apologize ('bitter irony'), but this encyclopedia is not your property. And finally, I'm not the one throwing "remarks around".
To GregLindahl:
In Poland's long history many documents were written in Latin, German, Ruthenian, Lithuanian etc. Frequency of the use of Polish language in official documents was quite low, especially if you compare it with Latin, Ruthenian and German. Kind of like at the British royal court, when the official language was French. Kind of, but not exactly, so don't use XXI century criteria to draw conclusions from a XIII century document. German name for the city is Danzig. It doesn't stop being a German name, if on English language sites or even German language sites, Germans use the current name in it's original version - Gdansk. They can do that for many reasons, mainly to avoid being confused with the irredentists, neo-nazis etc. Still, the German name is Danzig.
I added a lot more text to Pomerania and to Gdansk]]. Everytime you come up with something, there are records, that contradict that.
You have to remember, that German and especially Prussian records have been under Allied Military Occupation for 50 years and some are just now starting to become available.
Thanks for mentioning the Gdansk official website and putting it on top ! I had added that to the bottom some time ago, and despite of what you wrote, it does use Danzig. When you click on the site, click again on the right button, for German language (black, red, gold), then the German language text with Danzig will come up.
The people in Danzig apparently know, that the Heimwehtouristen the expelled homesick-tourists will not visit Gdansk, but do visit their home city Danzig.
devoted friend - Oddany Przyjaciel H. Jonat
Zaciekły Wróg Space Cadet
To GL:
I had no idea it was a "historical name". I just thought it was a typo, so I corrected it. Using so called "historical name" without even mentioning the current name, at least in parentheses, don't you think that's rude? You're pretty quick with name calling, too.
Another thing: is freedom and equal rights of African Americans still an open issue in America, just because of some quacks from K.K.K. and their publications?
Quid Erat Demonstrandum.
OK (sigh), since you decided to pretend not to understand, here's a simpler approach:
Is a question of wether Earth is a few thousand or a few billion years old, still open in science, because of Scientific Creationists and their publications?
The region you refer to is called Republic of Poland, or depending on the scale Central Europe, or Europe. Most geographis features (auto maps, school maps, atlases) have only one name and thats the name in official language of the country, the feature in question (be it river, city, lake or mountain) belongs to. Yes, there are some exceptions (recently more and more rare): Wroclaw (Breslau), Szczecin (Stettin), Odra (Oder), but certainly not Motlawa. If you think people in Poland should memorize all the German names of Polish cities, villages, rivers and streams, aren't you slightly detached?
Now, if I'm so ignorant for not knowing the "historical" name of Motlawa, do you know off hand historical names of Braniewo and Lidzbark? How about something smaller: Olecko, Zawady, Wigry, Parseta, Czukty, Ketrzyn, Pisz, Olsztynek, Kruklanki?
---
Hi GregLindahl and Vicki Rosenzweig
When Space Cadet entered that section I wrote the following to him, copy :
Thanks for mentioning the Gdansk official website and putting it on top ! I had added that to the bottom some time ago, and despite of what you wrote, it does use Danzig. When you click on the site, click again on the right button, for German language (black, red, gold), then the German language text with Danzig will come up
It was then removed by someone and re-appeared again.
Gee, the GoPoland web site, aimed at tourists, not ax-grinders, manages to make its way through the history of "multinamed Gdansk" (http://www.gopoland.com/wheretogo/gdansk/history/) without popping a blood vessel. Link provided for the curious. Ortolan88
To Greg, that's true, that their English language site, does not mention it. They are the ones that also wrote the German part with Danzig though. (German and English ist required from college students and plenty of them learn it). Give them credit for writing Danzig and Danziger at least in the German version. I made note of their use of Danzig in German on the Gdansk site and also added another Polish Gdansk website about the invitation to Danzigers.
Reading the English versions with the Polish names (as wiki does too),always makes it sound as if those are different places. I have looked at enough of them though, that I can nevertheless recognize them. The deliberate use of the Polish names only in the English versions and also nearly all other Polish writings has been very successful for them , just look at all the Polish names in this wikipedia alone.
The list of Buergermeister-mayors, which is on the same Danziger invitation site, is very interesting and surprising, that they did not 'translate' them too, as is usually the case.. H. Jonat
JHK, I see, you are back from vacation. There have been some vandalism attempts etc and it has been a chore. This is my best effort at English and with help of the other wikipedians, I have managed to muddle along. Of course, we have already missed your expert editing and we welcome you back to it. Meanwhile, many new important facts, which are also of interest, appear. H. Jonat
Your reply to Helga, (just like your replies to me) doesn't contain any information or valid argument, just unfair insults. OK, so we all know that Prussia is like some kind of religion for Helga, and that the opinions she's defending are always biased and never NPOV. But she's a very good, deep digging, researcher, not afraid to express her unorthodox way of thinking, and not afraid to challenge the, so called "official", history teachings. I know that her version of this article strongly implies that Gdansk was never polish prior to 1945, name "Gdansk" was invented in 1945 and no Polish people ever lived there before the war. It only motivates me to do more research, during which I'll probably learn a lot of new things.
"Danzig is the German tranlation of Gdansk" is not a school of thought, it's just a more or less accurate approximation of the way things are. Example: (see if you can follow it, without finding an excuse to accuse me of "invoking Godwin's Law", telling me to grow up, making more "informed guesses", or calling me a "Polish Skinhead". Then again, let's see if you can follow it, period!) The city of Koenigsberg has a Polish name Krolewiec and a Lithuanian name Karaliaucius. All three can be accepted as loose translations of each other, and they are, respectively, German, Polish, Lithuanian "versions" of the same name. The current name of the city - Kaliningrad - is not a translation or "russian version". The city has been renamed by the new "landlords" and newly invented name replaced the historic names (all three: German, Polish, Lithuanian are historic names).
"It's pretty clear that schoolchildren unable to find Danzig on a modern map are not the equivalent of KKK members" - I never made that comparison, you're putting words in my mouth, just to ridicule me, in lack of better arguments. I know many PhD's who were not able to find Poland, Switzerland, Sweden and Italy (not to mention the newly independent states like Lithuania, Estonia, Armenia etc.).
To: HJ
"You have to remember, that German and especially Prussian records have been under Allied Military Occupation for 50 years and some are just now starting to become available." I remember that they were still in the German country, with German Government, German universities, legal German organisations (for example Heimatvertriebene), German people reading German literature and speaking freely the German language. What you have to remember, is that Polish and especially Prussian records, were under foreign occupation for between 150 to 200 years, with no Polish country, government, educational system, or organizations. Where Polish history was being erased from the record, Polish language and traditions repressed. The three partitioning powers did everything they could, to make it impossible for the Polish state to ever emerge independent again. Nothing this drastic has happened to Germany.
And another thing, can you finally answer my question on what's false with this information:
"Brandenburg's fictitious claim to the Gdansk Pomerania was based on a treaty between Waclaw III and the Brandenburg which took place on August 8, 1305, promising the Misnia (Meissen) territory to the Czech Kingdom in exchange for the Gdansk Pomerania. The claim was fictitious, because the Czech king Waclaw III had no right to Pomerania and Brandenburg never ceded Misnia to the Czechs."
Otherwise I'm putting it back.
Zaciekły Prrzyjaciel Space Cadet
To the records being in Germany... they were under 50 years of military occupation by east and western allies, who kept the records in their installations and only recently was Berlin and whatever records there are, returned. Many of the records are not in Berlin but in many different places and everything is recreated from old books etc bit by bit. Prussian records are totally scattered everywhere, firstly, the Prussian government under Otto Braun on July 20, 1932 was by military coup ousted, taken-over, then in 1947 Prussia was resolved by Allies , both illegal acts by international law, I believe.
Polish records, while there was no seperate country of Poland, nevertheless, were kept in German and Polish language as I can see from official documents from Lodz and from the Warsaw library. And on German maps Poland did not disappear, it was shown as Russisch Polen -Russian Poland. I do'nt know what you comment about Prussia in that context is supposed to mean.
To your question on Waclaw III , Brandenburg and what you call Gdansk Pomerania Wenzel III, Wenzeslaus III or whatever name, was the son of ,Wenceslaus II of Bohemia, King of Bohemia/Poland. ,Wen.. means, that he did have other names too. Bohemia means he was a part of the HRE Holy Roman Empire, because Bohemia was a part. Wenceslaus II , son of Premysl Ottokar II, the great, king of Bohemia was an imperial officer , if you will. Wenceslaus III was married to Gutta Habsburg, later to Elizabeth.
Elizabeth's 1. marriage to Wenceslaus II Elizabeth's 2. marr. to Rudolf III Habsburg, king of Bohemia Rudolf III was the son of Albert I Habsburg, HRE acc. 1298 + 1308
Waclaw III or Wenzel III was the son of this Elizabeth, dec. of the emperor and her husband Wenzel II. I attribute it all to family ties.Also read Casimir IV Milai ginnis kails H. Jonat
Milai kails to you, too.
He was annoying, wasn't he? (I'm talking about the little "know it all", who made a lot of fuss, but forgot to make a point).
About Polish records during Partition: of course some documents survived the "dark times", but majority was never seen again. The so called "Russisch Polen" or the Congress Kingdom existed only from 1815 to 1846 and it was really nothing more than a name. It was a russian province with the russian Czar as the king.
I understand the genealogy of Bohemian (or Czech, because this country "did have other names too")rulers now. But what does it have to do with my statement about "ficticious claims" that you deleted?
Sp Cad
Have a good 4.of July H. Jonat
By June 1945 there were 8000 Poles and 124,000 Danziger Germans in the city.
1949 There were 185,000 various people from Poland and 3,000 Danziger German living in the city.
Wow, I thought we solved this. Now we are opening up an old can of toxic worms, yet again. My suggestion: start the article as follows. "Throughout much of its history, the city of Gdansk, now part of Poland, was ruled by Prussia and later Germany, which called it Danzig. Both names are commonly used to refer to the city." Then, in the article, when it was under Polish rule, call it Gdansk, and when it was under Prussian/German rule, call it Danzig. Just a suggestion. Waiting for flames from both sides (btw, JeLuf, Danzig is also used in English, and in some contexts is more correct in English too.) Danny
The LDS started filming in 1920 with the newly created 'Polish' Corridor. The church record (German: Kirchenbuecher) were started at the time of the Reformation in order for the Catholic and Lutheran churches to know where the paying members were (slight joke!... of course also for the pastor/priest to take care of his flock)
Before Luther, no church book records were needed. Everyone had to be a baptised Catholic. The Danzig/Westprussia/Prussia individual churches are all listed by name and when you go to the bottom of the page, click on 'here' for printed record. Then you will find the individual years and: Taufen, Heiraten, Tote(meaning, baptism, marriage, death).
These Danzig Kirchenbuecher (church records0, filmed by the LDS, go back to 1533.
For before that, I can only offer you the Danzig city government seal and the Hanseatic League (for Danzig to 1669) records for before church records and after.
But I suspect you might actually know all this, but with your creative and interesting math, you really just want to through me off or humour me. H. Jonat
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