Talk:Solanales

I'm not a biologist, but that's probably the case with most Wikipedians. From looking at a lot of biological and taxonomic sites it seems that biologists are just as confused as the rest of us about the taxa.

In redrafting this article I was hoping to raise a number of issues that could be applicable to all biological articles. Using Solanales to initiate this approach is a completely arbitrary decision.

One issue that I'm not wanting to address at this point is that of English vs. Latin names. That topic has already had considerable discussion elsewhere. Nevertheles, the comments below work better with the Latin names.

Format convention
A convention is an agreement to all do things the same way, based on two or more viable alternatives. Nothing implicit to these alternatives makes one more right than an other. That some countries drive on the left side of the road, and that other countries drive on the right is a matter of convention. Experience has shown that either system is viable. (The proposal by the Rhinoceros Party[?] of Canada that would have promoted a gradual change whereby in the first phase only large trucks would have changed sides could have encountered some difficulties.)

A format convention will insure that all related articles will look the same; that is a benefit to the reader looking for particular information. The details that I have proposed (including the headings) are subject to change with the understanding that if more people use this model that will have the effect of acceptance. The proposed headings are

• Placement - This places the taxon in a larger context.

replaced by the taxobox. -Henriette, Sep8, 2002

• Synonyms and common names - This allows us to cope with some problematic issues.
• Reference - "citing one's sources" - more about this below.
• Text - Whatever you want to say; this could be further subdivided.
• Children - At least the list of taxa in the level immediately below, but there could be more.
• Problems - Here we can note deviations from what the writer has accepted as a standard. In Solanales I show two families that my source did not show as belonging here. One it placed in another order; the other was not even in its data base.

References
In a world where authorities differ significantly this becomes more important than ever. For an online encyclopaedia a printed book is not the best information source. Adequate texts are expensive and not easily accessible to everybody. If they are in libraries they are usually in reference sections and can't be taken out. Furthermore, not all libraries will have the same reference. Thus, the first criterion for a general taxonomic reference is that it be on-line.

My current preference and the one that I propose for this kind of reference is for the Integrated Taxonomic Reference System[?] or simply ITIS[?] at http://www.itis.usda.gov/ I was previously using the Taxonomy Browser of the National Center for Biotechnology Information or NCBI at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Taxonomy/ which also has useful genomic information about taxa; however, the simple fact that it does not show usual "class-order-family-genus" terminology make it more difficult to use. Are there any other candidate sites? Sometimes other sites may be appropriate, or may be used to supplement the information.

The important point is still to cite your source. The date when you checked the source should also be there. The information is constantly changing. When you see an old date here you can always go to the source, and if it hasn't changed, it will be enough to simply alter the date in the article.

-- Eclecticology, Wednesday, May 29, 2002

One source I often use for angiosperms is the Delta database. This is findable with a web search for "families flowering plants" and the genus or family name, as the pages all begin with "The Families of Flowering Plants". Sometimes, unfortunately, the website is inaccessible. -phma

Thanks, I've cross-referenced to that on a couple occasions. Of course, its drawback is that it is limited to flowering plants. See http://biodiversity.uno.edu/delta/angio/ --Eclecticology

ITIS is quite nice, yes, but it's seems to be limited to North-American native species. That's rather limiting to Europeans... like me. Anyhow, I'll update medicinal plants until I run out of steam, and link the lot to herb, too.
Another problem with Delta is that it only goes to genus level, no species. I'll be using multi-language online databases that I can trust. For instance, this site: http://linnaeus.nrm.se/flora/welcome is quite nice. --Henriette, Sept 6, 2002

Yes, that is one of their shortcomings. They do have ambitious plans, and in time may even have the resources to pull that off. The Species 2000 project is more a world-wide project to which ITIS and 17 others contribute. The source that you mentioned could be good, but you may have noticed a slight tendency toward ethnocentrism among anglophones such that a Swedish language site may not have great appeal to them. Eclecticology 06:19 Sep 7, 2002 (UTC)

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Agreed, non-English language sites may not agree with anglophiles, but as long as the data (mostly family/genus/species etc. lists, after all) is sound, there should not be a problem.

Re. the Tree of life project organization: all plant pages should be called by their botanical binominals (that is, "Petroselinum" i/o "Parsley") (somebody else has voiced that elsewhere), with redirects from common names and from latin synonyms where deemed necessary; as more plants go in people will start to notice that there's quite a few "heal-alls", a handful of "meadowsweets" and such.

Also, lists of genera and species in the taxoboxes _need_ the "Author" bit (that is, "L.", "Ehrh.", "DC." etc.). It pinpoints the exact species meant - if you delve deeper into botany you'll find a few identically named genera and species, where two botanists on opposite sides of the globe have come up with the same brilliant naming idea. Later on, the newer one is renamed to something else, but some will continue to use the old names... so if you don't include the Author, botanists can't tell which you're talking about.

Lastly, I'd like a blank "cut'n'paste" page for each of the levels; where should that be put? "Tree_of_life - Plant_Order (example)"?

Henriette, Sept 8, 2002

They should be at WikiProject Tree of Life. There's one already filled in for spiderwort, but a few blank ones would be good. Usually I copy the taxobox from the closest organism I can think of and edit it.

Would you like to write a list of the various authors of species? Everyone knows who L. was, but it wasn't until recently that I knew anything about Juss.. -phma

OK, the sample taxoboxes are now on WikiProject Tree of Life. Didn't make them blank though.

What I know about authors I've picked up over the years, no formal studies. Like, Siebold went to Japan a few times (in the 1800s), hence a few _hundred_ sieboldii -species. He got thrown out for dabbling in politics, went back as a "German", dabbled in politics again, got thrown out again, and never made it back. You could say he pined for the Fnjapans ever after... -Henriette

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This discussion should probably be moved to Talk:WikiProject Tree of Life, and I may do that when I have the energy. The issues are far broader than than just the Solanales.

I very much agree with Henriette about using binomial names; they avoid a lot of ambiguities that result from using common names. Unfortunately, there are as many people who prefer using common names, and who move binomially titled articles to their common names as soon as they see them. At this stage in the debate I am content to use binomial names when I start an article knowing full well that they may not survive that way. This argument seems to pop up with some regularity.

Showing the authors is a good idea about which I somewhat agree. The Siebold example also shows that there are some interesting stories in lives of some of these authors. I was just looking at the primate family Indridae where for the genus Indri the author is given as "É. Geoffroy Saint-Hilaire and G. Cuvier, 1796" - a bit long! Other sources don't even show authors anymore. This issue has not been debated, but I'm inclined to treat their inclusion as an option at this stage. Eclecticology 23:04 Sep 9, 2002 (UTC)

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This article doesn't actually state what "Solanales" is. I am left clueless. -- Sam

This looks like a valid criticism. I suppose that saying simply saying that it is an order of plants won't be satisfactory.:-[ Eclecticology 20:07 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)