Talk:List of songwriters/temp

Just for the record, I picked twelve of each just because when I made my first list of heavy metal songwriters, it happened to be exactly twelve. I took that as a sign, and it worked out pretty well for the other two. I only lamented the loss of Snoop Doggy Dogg in hip hop, but twelve seems to be a good number. Tokerboy

Also just for the record, I'm a bit unsure about the "primary songwriters" bit. Unfortunately, songwriting credit is often vague and confusing, so in some cases (especially funk and reggae) I may be incorrect. Tokerboy

YO TOKERBOY!!! Paul McCartney and John Lennon!!! The best selling song writers of all time!!! (what about the older generation--Irving Berlin, Cole Porter, etc., etc.). And I want to add a personal vote for Wayne Coyne of the Flaming Lips and Damon Albarn of Blur if we are trapped in the post-70s era. Danny 03:25 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC) P.S. Pete Townsend!!!

Ditto on Lennon/McCartney.. also Brian Wilson. It might also be interesting to see some artists listed that make their money on songs written by other people. Folks like the Monkees - where most of their hits were written by Carol King or Neil Diamond or somebody. Jazz77

And, of course, Mackenzie Philips or whatever his name was from the Mamas and the Papas. Danny 03:34 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC) And how can I forget Ray Davies--I got tickets to see him on Feb 28 Danny 03:36 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

Of course Lennon, Wilson, Coyne, Townsend, Albarn, Berlin, Porter, McCartney, Davies and Philips (not Mackenzie, but I don't remember the first name) should be on the list. I just haven't gotten to folk rock or psychedelic music or whatever genre you'd call all that (which is part of the reason I haven't done it yet). Tokerboy 05:03 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

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It's John Phillips.

I don't hold out much hope for this one, guys.

How about starting with some criteria instead of starting with one more all-inclusive list? I'll try to limit my examples here to people whose songs I truly love.

1. Did they write songs only for their own group or act? If so, wouldn't they be taken care of by articles about the group or act? Has anyone ever recorded a Clash song except them? (If so, see next item.) Is everybody who ever had an original song on an album to be included here?
2. Were their songs covered widely? Or are they taken care of by the cover version article (already 15 k bytes and out of control)? If various bands have covered The Who out of love for The Who, which I suppose has happened, does that really make Pete and Wistle important songwriters outside the context of their own band?
3. Are they actual songwriters who have written songs for other people who have recorded them, not because these people wrote them, but because they were good songs, such as Neil Diamond who wrote "Kentucky Woman", Lennon and McCartney, George Harrison (only one really important song, but hundreds have recorded it) Elvis Costello, Ray Davies, Sly Stone, Irving Berlin, George Gershwin, Bob Dylan, Harry Nilsson etc.
4. Are they primarily songwriters, whose careers as professional performers are unimportant in comparison to the songs they have written? Allen Toussaint[?], Dan Penn[?] and Spooner Oldham[?]

In other words, is there a way this article can be more than a collision between rock and roll/performers and cover versions? If every member of every group who has ever gotten a songwriting credit is going to be listed, once all the 500 varieties of metal band and all their members have been listed, there won't be much of a chance for this article to tell the future readers of Wikipedia who the important songwriters are. I hope I haven't hurt anyone's feelings here, but the list as it stands is just another list of favorites. Ortolan88

Good points, but I think the crux of my standing is that there will be a list of songwriters on Wikipedia, just like there will be a list of famous Koreans or Mongols or a list of novels with the name of a heroine in the title -- people like making lists because it's easy (I'm not passing the buck here; when I'm living up to my namesake, full sentences are difficult but lists are easy... except for the short-term memory thing). The question is how to make the list most useful.

I suppose there are two different ways to go. First of all, and the solution I proposed at Talk:List of songwriters is to identify the most influential 12 songwriter(s) in various genres. The other option is to specify that the list is only for songwriters who were not also performers (at least primarily). I'm a big fan of requiring criteria for inclusion on Wikipediac lists, whether it's a caption explaining why they are important (as at music video, and I may soon propose, cover version) or limiting the list to the most important ones in whatever more specialized fields (as here, because I don't think people will cotton to a list of songwriters that includes a list of names they've never heard of, but not John Lennon). That was my reasoning behind this -- lists are useless if everyone adds whoever they want, but since the lists will be created no matter what (without a policy decision on when to make a list and when not to), I think the best solution is to decide how to make those lists as useful as possible. Tokerboy

Since, judging from his comments, I'm not sure Ortolan caught it, all the genres list exactly 12 from each genre, or else I miscounted. I am proposing that that be a rule to keep the list from being a list of everyone's favorite punk band and anyone who nodded their head while they composed a song. Tokerboy

Well, if a really sharp guy like me missed the idea of the limit of 12, how will the great unwashed understand it? That is, this is Wikipedia and any article can be edited mercilessly. Most people will take one look and start typing, and who can blame them? Percy Sledge[?] or Aaron Neville[?] or George Harrison may have written only one great song each, but what songs! And, even if the list could be limited it to 12 by some magic, take the country list (the best one, only one real dud), can I kick Hank Williams Jr. off the list and replace him with Shel Silverstein, a much better songwriter? And I'm betting Lucinda Williams[?] would take one look and say, "Hey, take me off and put Roy Acuff[?] on!"

One solution that has been discussed on the mailing list is to use lists compiled by outside organizations, like the Songwriters Hall of Fame (http://www.songwritershalloffame.org/). It wouldn't be perfect maybe. This year's Songwriters HOF inductees are Phil Collins, Queen, Van Morrison and Little Richard, but (sucking it up a bit on Phil Collins), we see a singer-songwriter of wide popularity, a band whose songs really stand out as compositions, a songwriter whose songs have been sung by many people besides himself, and one of the most influential performers of all time whose songs have been imitated by other great songwriters like Paul McCartney and John Fogerty. Of course, Michael Bolton[?] is a member, but, taking the good with the bad isn't the worst thing an encyclopedia can do. I think there are also either Country, Jazz, R&B, etc. Songwriter Halls, or songwriter sections in their respective Halls of Fame that could give us pretty good lists. Both BMI and ASCAP are songwriters' organizations and both of them have annual awards as well.

And, getting back to my original concerns. If this is a songwriter page, let's just put Eddie Vedder on it and simply credit Pearl Jam as his major venue. Organizing by bands seems to me to be a mistake. I'm pretty sure lots of bands have recorded Eddie's songs. Stephen Stills and Neil Young are pretty important songwriters, but Graham Nash and David Crosby aren't. The list definitely has to work its way out of being just a list of recording artists with originals. Babyface[?] has more than a dozen albums out under his own name or various groups, but he's way more important as a songwriter. People like Chuck Berry who are equally important as both performer and songwriter are pretty rare. This list needs to reflect the reality of the songwriting business. Ortolan88 16:38 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

I have no problem using hall of fame(s). There's already a list at Songwriters Hall of Fame for that one -- we could move the list to List of songwriters and then add various other reputable lists, labelled so the reader knows which list comes from where. Tokerboy

Here's some external links if anyone wants to peruse:

• Nashville Songwriters Foundation Hall of Fame (http://www.nashvillesongwritersfoundation.com/hall)
• Nashville Songwriters Association International (http://www.nashvillesongwriters.com/) has several awards similar to a hall of fame.

Excellent! Rather than editing this page, I'm going to do an alternate format draft at List of songwriters/temp2, but I have to think and research a little before I do. It will take me a bit to come up with it. I'll start it so people can add it to their watchlists, but there won't be much there yet. Ortolan88 17:16 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

I agree, I don't think 12 of each genre will work. I'm off to have a look at what Ortolan's doing now. Deb 20:16 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)