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Talk:Copernicus' nationality

This Talk page once was the talk:Nicolaus Copernicus page.

Please, keep here all what regards Nicolaus Copernicus' nationality

Removed this part to talk and put the correct place names and map on front:

Nicolaus (or Nicholas) Copernicus (1473-1543) was a Polish astronomer of German origins who developed a heliocentric (Sun-centered) theory of the solar system. He was also a priest and a medic.

His major theory was published in the book De revolutionibus orbium coelestium ("On the Revolutions of the Heavenly Spheres") in the year of his death 1543, even though he had arrived at it several decades earlier. This book marks the beginning of the shift from a geocentric (and anthropocentric[?]) universe. Copernicus held that the Earth is another planet revolving around the fixed sun once a year, and turning on its axis once a day. The theory, unfortunately, still had some serious defects, like circular as opposed to elliptical orbits and epicycles, that made it no more precise in predicting ephemerides than the then current tables based on Ptolemy's model. But it had a large influence on scientists such as Galileo and Kepler, who adopted, championed and, in Kepler's case, improved the model. The book was put on the Index of Forbidden Books in 1616 by the Roman Catholic Church. Galileo's observation of the phases of Venus produced the first observational evidence for Copernicus' theory.

Legend says that a printed copy of De revolutionibus was put in Copernicus's hands shortly before his death so that he could say goodbye to his opus vitae. He awoke from his stroke induced coma, looked at his book, and died peacefully.

Polish or German?

Copernicus is generally regarded as Polish, and in terms of the political geography of his time, this is undoubtedly correct. Torun, his place of birth, had passed from the suzerainty of the Order of Teutonic Knights to that of the King of Poland shortly after his father's arrival there from Krakow. However, ethnically both his mother and father were most likely of German origin. The family name can be traced to the town of Koppernigk near Neisse in Silesia, which was inhabited by Germans in the 14th century at the time of emigration from that region eastwards into Poland. No known letter written by him was in the Polish language -- they were all in Latin or German. However, that means little, as Latin was at the time the international language of scholars and those letters in German may have been addressed to Germans and therefore written in that language.

He was definitely Polish by allegiance (in terms of the politics of the time). In 1512, when he was Canon of the Chapter of Frombork, Copernicus swore allegiance to King Sigismund I of Poland. In 1520, after the outbreak of war between Poland and the Teutonic Knights, Copernicus was a member of the Polish embassy to the Grand Master requesting restoration of Braniewo to Poland. He also organized the defence of Olsztyn against the Order.

Talk

Polish or German?

I question this H. Jonat

Why? He lived in Poland (In part of Poland called Prussia, just like others where called Great Poland, Mazovia, Little Poland- if you will see map from that period, you will see map of Masovia, and no Polonia around). He was loyal to Polish state. His language - heh! in XVIII century one of most popular Polish Patriotic songs was in German, and was written by Danziger!szopen

A, one more thing: Mikolaj or Nikolaj, both forms were allowed in Polish by that time.

I have walked many years on this planet and Copernicus was always one of the guys to admire. It is nice to know that a guy from Poland (he was born in Polish Torun, studied in Polish Cracow, and died in Polish Frombork) wrote a book that started serious science not long after Gutenberg made publishing possible. The news that he might be a German hit me as much as if a German was to learn today that Gutenberg was Polish! I have never seen such a claim and never thought about the language he mights speak at home, although all my knowledge indicates it must have been Polish. As for his writings, no wonder it was in Latin (lingua franca of his day, esp. in science). He had also extensive German contacts. Note that only around Copernicus's death, first literary works in Polish were published. Polish language (esp. in writing) was still a toddler in the 16th century. -- Piotr Wozniak from Poland

Copernicus is generally regarded as Polish, and in terms of the political geography of his time, this is undoubtedly correct. Torun, his place of birth, had passed from the suzerainty of the Order of Teutonic Knights to that of the King of Poland shortly after his father's arrival there from Krakow. However, ethnically both his mother and father were most likely of German origin. The family name can be traced to the town of Koppernigk near Neisse in Silesia, which was inhabited by Germans in the 14th century at the time of immigration from that region eastwards into Poland. No known letter written by him was in Polish language - they were all in Latin or German language - but native languages weren't widely used in writing at that time.
He was definitely Polish by allegiance (in terms of the feudal politics of the time). In 1512, Copernicus as Canon of the Chapter of Frombork swore allegiance to King Sigismundus I of Poland. In 1520, after the outbreak of war with the Teutonic Knights, Copernicus was a member of the Polish embassy to the Grand Master requesting restoration of Braniewo to Poland. He also organized the defence of Olsztyn against the Order.
But in any case, modern concepts of nationalism did not exist in his era, so the question is really an anachronism.

At that time many city dwellers in Poland was non-Polish ethnically and spoke German at home. Polish-or-German is ethnic, not national question, as there was no nationality at that time. Copernicus was most probably of German origins, his name is German and there isn't any prove that he even spoke Polish. That looks like a German living in Poland. -- Taw

I think that, if his allegiance was to Poland, he must be considered polish. For example, Einstein is usually cited as an American physicist of german origin, so Copernicus would be a Pole of German origin. Just my non-expert opinion. --AstroNomer

Here Einstein is usually cided as a Jewish physicis and Columbus as Italian, not Spanish, sailor.

Columbus' father, mather, sister and 2 brothers were Italians, genovesi (from Genoa). They had in Genoa a huge business in wine and tissues (you know where the jeans comes from?). Strange, Columbus too was accidentally born in Italian Genoa. I wonder why some still insist in saying he was Italian...

In medieval times country wasn't that important. In feudalism, countries and pseudo-countries went up and down all the time. The only thing that could be reliably traced is ethnicity.

Actually, medieval ethnicity is a problem. In the Early Middle Ages (my end of the field) one of the real research growth areas is ethnicity-building. For instance, it is now quite clear that all those Germanic tribes (Ostro- and Visigoths, Lombards, Vandals, Heruli, Franks, etc., etc.) were very fluid concepts. We always knew that the Heruli had sort of dissolved into the Ostrogoths, but now it's clear that the Burgundians and the Bavarii were entirely composite groups - and the Bavarii Dukes were all Franks. Ethnicity is no clearer in the Middle Ages than it is today. Allegiance was clear - if someone changes allegiance, they have to swear a new and public oath. The *reasons* for that allegiance may or may not be 'volk'ish. --MichaelTinkler

I am amazed to find that there is actually a discussion going on and it is not just blindly copied what almost all the modern historians for the last 50 years have been echoing.

For Nicolaus Copernicus read http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04352b.htm -Cath. Encyl. not always right, but much better than most books ( because written before WW I ).

Nicolaus never signed his name starting with - M -which he would have done if he was Polish, then he would have had the name or signed it M - Mikolaj .

He never spoke or wrote any word of Polish . He did write Latin and Greek . The official language in Prussia , where he was born, was Low German Hanseatic Platt . He was born in a Hanseatic city , that means only German language people were citizen of the city. Thorn or in Latin Thorunensis was in Culmerland ,Kulmerland . This was and is Old Prussi land . The people in the country and villages spoke old Prussian, see wikipedia Baltic, Prussian Language . His uncle , Lucas Watzenrode or Watzelrode was bishop of Ermland , that meant governor.

see the Catholic encyclopedia www.newadvent above for Ermland, independend bishopric, Culm , Silesia etc.

The allegiences were Feudal laws, pledges to an individual, and from him again to the next higher individual.

The only correct answer is , Copernicus was born in Thorn or Latin Thorun , Prussia ( Culmer Land ,later Kulmerland if you want to be more specific) and he lived and died in Frauenburg ,Prussia and Heilsberg , Prussia.

For church records from Thorn, Heilsberg,Braunsberg, Frauenburg see http://www.familysearch.com go to records-to places, type in the towm , then click on church record . You will find films taken by LDS of the original Kirchenbuecher- churchbooks.

Did the Elector or the Duke of Prussia of the Hohenzollern elector family of the Holy Roman Empire become Polish, because he gave an allegiance to an uncle (Sigismund I ), his mothers brother. ? Did the Polish dukes or kings become German , when they pledged allegiances to the German emperors ?

The people of Thorn did not become Polish , when again under the Feudal law they refused to pledge allegiance to the Teutonic Knights.

There was no state nationality , there was only citizenship. This meant if you wanted to live and work in a city and wanted to become a citizen you applied to the city council , which was the sole responsible government of a Hanseatic city. Then you became a citizen of that city , not of the city next door.

To Michael Tinkler , boy am I glad I am not writing this one .

                               H.J.

Is there a page in Wikipedia regarding ethnicity and nationalism in the 1400s-1500s? If so, could someone share that link? If not, some of the above might make for an interesting discussion. It appears to deserve attention as a topic. I don't feel competent to construct it, however (guess that makes me a Wikiwimp). --RjLesch

of possibly German origins

Why "possibly" ? Is there anything that suggests otherwise ? --Taw

Hi Taw -- yes, there are arguments to the contrary -- read the above discussion. One regular contributor claims that Copernicus was German, the majority say Polish, but that his ethnicity may have been German...JHK

Took this from main page, where Helga Jonat placed it. Looks like it says it's a map of Poland to me... JHK

Poland is to the south-west of Prussia , open the map for a look at the land of Prussia or Preussen where Copernicus was born :

Hanseatic city of Thorn ,( Civitatis Thorun(ensis) in Latin ) is located in Prussia, Kulmerland Culmerland (Culmigeria on the map )to the bottom left of the map . This map is from circa 1600 (published 1660) . It is also available re-published by Royal Geographic Society as "Blaeu's The grand Atlas of the 17th Century World ( Barnes & Noble).

1570 maps showing Prussia can be seen on: T # 70 Pomerania, Marca, Prussia T # 71 Prussia T # 72 Livonia T # 98 Index A-Z of the World- Atlas , but no Polonia ???

(Have available maps of 1493 , 1539 and 1547 showing Prussia or Preussen , but not on internet. H. Jonat

The map depicts not the country of Prussia, which simply did not exist in Copernicus' times, but a Polish province of Prussia, west part of which (the monastic state of Prussia, later Ducal Prussia) was administered by the German Order of Teutonic Knights, under direct suzerainity to Polish king. Copernicus, however, lived in the eastern part of that province, called Royal Prussia, an integral part of the Poland - Lithuania Commonwealth. Therefore any speculations trying to place Copernicus outside of Poland are absolutely untrue. Space Cadet.

Hey, 66.*, sorry about the editing conflicts. In general, please use the Preview button, and don't click the Save button till you're really done. This should minimize editing conflicts. -- Marj Tiefert, Sunday, April 14, 2002

Took AstroNomer's hint ref European and removed nonesense once again: Polish or German?

Copernicus is regarded as Polish, and in terms of the political geography of his time, this is undoubtedly correct. Torun, his place of birth, had passed from the suzerainty of the Order of Teutonic Knights to that of the King of Poland shortly after his father's arrival there from Krakow. However, ethnically both his mother and father were most likely of German origin. The family name can be traced to the town of Koppernigk near Neisse in Silesia, which was inhabited by Germans in the 14th century. No known letter written by him was in the Polish language -- they were all in Latin or German. However, that means little, as Latin was at the time the international language of scholars and those letters in German may have been addressed to Germans and therefore written in that language.

I think there must be a mention to the controversy (i put a very short paragraph about it), even if its not a detailed one. AstroNomer

HJ -- what you continue to do to this article is inexcusable. You are taking something created with NPOV, and just putting in what you, in your uninformed world, consider the truth. Moreover, your little "let's just say people can't agree" at the end was misleading. The truth is, most scholars do agree. You just don't want to accept that people had a very different world-view about nationality and ethnicity before the 19th century. Please stop -- what you are doing is worse than vandalism -- it is propogating half-truths, in the hope that you'll get away with them because many people don't know better. JHK

JHK your slanderous name-calling is unacceptable. You cannot even tell that I did not write the words, that you claimed I wrote and yet you want to pass yourself off as being a correct scholar. Copernicus was born in Thorn in Prussia. You do not have the right to say, it was in Poland, because it was not. Instead of searching for facts and correcting mistakes, you perpetuate them by your own false statement, that Copernicus was born in Thorn in Poland.

While I wrote this, Gianfranco's comment came it. I agree with Gianfranco. H.J.

I think we should keep on a more "encyclopedic" tone on the matter: the question of his nationality (whatever might it really represent, conclude or otherwise produce), effectively WAS widely discussed, with complex reasons proposed by both sides - for evident reasons. Whatever the final result or whatever the personal opinions on the real collective need of such a topic, we should consider (IMHO) that a relevant debate was going on for centuries and perhaps (as we can see) is not over. Many people weren't perhaps even aware that a such a debate existed, before reading this article.

None of us is wrong, and none of us is right, just because coming from one rather than from another world. Each of use responds of him/herself. And we are here to provide information, and (hopefully) contents, to uninformed worlds too, if we can decipher which ones they really are.

Wouldn't it be more useful to better describe Copernicus' contribution to general culture instead of giving all the attention to this (IMHO) quite useless debate? --Gianfranco

Gianfranco, it would be much more useful, but I would like to see evidence of this so-called widespread debate -- at least before the 19th century. I have not been around much of late, and you were not present when Frau Jonat began to infest this site with articles that demonstrate a narrow, irredentist, POV. To the best of my knowledge, which is well grounded in European history and its research methodology, the kind of claims that belong to this debate are grounded in late-19th and early 20th century ethnic nationalism. They do not reflect the thinking of Copernicus' time.

This is why several wikipedians contributed to the article as it stood before Fr. Jonat jumped back in with her, "Copernicus is Prussian and that's all there is to it," argument, which you improved somewhat. The problem is, of course, that by doing so, you have encouraged the idea that this debate is central to understanding Copernicus. As you point out above, it is minimal.

Really, I had heard many years ago of this nationalistic dispute, and when I read this page (with all this attention to the point) I made a quick search on books to better remember. I then added what I found in an old abstract, where no details are given about the times of the debate, so I just took out the fact that the debate lasted for a relevant while (yes, every attribute is relative), if I well understood it.

Of course, we needed first to consider Copernicus "important" in a modern sense, for this nationalistic dispute to have a meaning, and this could only happen in the last centuries. So, I am not contesting at all that the debate was in the times you indicated.

I sincerely regret if my notes produced the result of giving even more importance to this matter, I had merely tried to give a draft of note that could explain what the thing was about, in order to provide NPOV elements to solve this stall and sooner get back to our good old "Nick". If we had spent just a third of the energies used for this "debate's debate" to develop instead the real topic, we would now read - i.e. - what his theories represented for the evolution of science, religion, culture. Not a minor issue, maybe.

Let's try this way: his nationality needs to revolve around his figure, it's not his figure that needs to revolve around his nationality, like the Sun is not revolving around Earth (someone said). :-) --Gianfranco

As for you Frau Jonat, first, the correct word, if true, would be libelous, as a website is a quasi-print format. However, it is not true. It's also ridiculous that a woman who has made very personal comments about others on this site would dare to be offended when someone points out scholarly misbehavior (and nothing personal). The facts are clear, and can be demonstrated in almost a year of your contributions: to date, you have repeatedly written articles that are at best misleading and often untrue or incorrect, grounded in part in your refusal to work according to NPOV policy; you have often plagiarized other sources; your contributions are seldom edited for grammar, typos, etc.; you tend to use untrustworthy sources because they support your somewhat rarified point of view. Initially, people assumed that you wanted to contribute to a group project, and tried to help you in interpreting your sources, checking facts, etc. You have clearly demonstrated that you have no interest in working in a collegial manner. It is your refusal to accept that yours is often not the accepted POV, and your willingness, nay, outright determination, to mislead others that I consider vandalism. I stand by that. JHK

Moving text from Nicolaus Copernicus, where it was removed to Talk:

"There were more Germans than Poles living in Krakow at the time of Copernicus during European Imperial rule. Russians, Poles and Czech had no difficulty in 1945 telling nationality, when nearly all ethnic Germans, many barely speaking any German, nevertheless were ethnically cleansed from Eastern European countries.

These new Slavic countries were formed by military take-overs after WW I. For many centuries German groups had lived there. 1945 it became part of the Polish pattern to claim everything was originally Polish by the Communist military government, lead by Soviet Union. These Communist Poles claim re-gained original Polish territory. Not even the Russian claim anything like that. The majority of people who had to lived under the communist system of propaganda, knew that they were fed lies.

One should remember however, that Stalin had powerful allies that aided him in his undertakings, thus making his total take-over of all of Eastern Europe for decades possible.

Copernicus lived for over fourty years in Frauenburg in Ermland in Prussia and he kept daily record books on rentals, incomes, secular and church business. He used his native language and spoke with the native people of the country. He was their physician and only occasionally did he work on his astronomy. He several times signed as his name Kopperlingk, obviously because his father's family business was copper and therefore the Low German Kopper (High German Kupfer) and the -lingk ending indicated someone who is dabbling in copper, a copperling. User:H.J.

The paragraph about nationality (and what above) could perhaps be better placed in a separate Copernicus' nationality page because:

if we believe that this matter is not fundamental in describing Copernicus, it would not be appropriated to keep here all this stuff.
if we believe instead that this matter is fundamental in describing Copernicus, it should deserve a separate page that could give this important discussion all the space it needs.

--Gianfranco

I agree with Gianfranco here - this "controversy" isn't important enough to warrent anything more than one or two sentences in the main Copernicus article. It would be more appropriate to have anything more than that elsewhere. --maveric149

I rewrote the second paragraph in the hopes of being NPOV and more accurately representing the nature of the controversy. I also separated the article into two sections. Perhaps the more theoretically sophisticated historians out there would take this opportunity to flesh out the second part. It might be a good "teaching moment" -- at least for some future reader who stumbles across this article. SR

I've rewritten the "Second Debate" section ever so slightly because as it stood it didn't really describe a debate at all (and it wasn't really all that NPOV, even if I do agree with its sentiments.) I hope these changes aren't going to spark off some enormous row. --Bth

If there weren't nations back then, how could there be nationalities? Kingturtle 08:24 27 May 2003 (UTC)

I've added two sentences, taken from discussion in the usenet. -- szopen

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