Talk:Coalition of the willing

I did an imperfect merge...there's a lot of information here, some of which perhaps should be split off, better located elsewhere? Also, this is pretty fluid, so let's not get too jumpy about the content. --The Cunctator

Poland being listed as sending "non-combat troops" has to be a surprise to the Polish comandos that are seizing weapons and ships off the coast of iraq.

I also think its unecessary to insist on refering to some of the nations as "small". Who cares? It sounds like you're intentionally trying to diminish their role (and I know you are).

Plenty of people care that they are small. There are any number of corporations with larger budgets than most of the nations on the list. I'm trying to accurately describe the situation. I've even been generous: Palau, Micronesia, Marshall Islands etc. are tiny nations. --The Cunctator

From Secretary Powell [1] (http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2003/18981.htm):

Well, I think it's still a fair point to make, whether it's greater or less than it was at the time of the Gulf War. But as of today, there were 46 nations in this coalition. Everybody was saying the United States is going it alone politically and militarily. Well, more and more nations are joining us. Now, they all can't contribute militarily. Most of them don't have the wherewithal to add to the kind of combat power that we, the United Kingdom and the Australians can bring to the table. But for a small country that's taking a big internal domestic political chance, and hears itself threatened by larger nations in Europe, to nevertheless stand up and say we think this is the right thing to do, we want to be a member of the coalition of the willing and we want the whole world to know it, I think that is the kind of commitment we should treasure and the kind of commitment that we should certainly present to the world, as a nation that is part of this great effort to rid Iraq of its weapons of mass destruction and provide a better life for the Iraqi people by getting rid of this regime.

that's a very cute comment. I like the idea of small countries feeling threatened by larger nations in Europe, and running under USA fatherly protection, and wanting the whole world to know it. I also like the royal "we".

Now, would anybody object if it be removed ? Or should "we" (the other we around) also start sentimental rants in the talk pages ?

User:anthere

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The countries listed there are supposed to be part of the coalition ?!

Do you really mean a country who announced it was willing to support reconstruction "after the war" is counted in coalition forces ?

Thanks for pointing that list Mav. That's very interesting. ant

"Coalition of the willing" and "coalition forces" are two related but different things. "Forces" = fighting troops. If I mixed this up by my edit then please forgive me. --mav

There is something very screwy with the counts in this article. There are 191 nations in the UN. 47 + 55 = 191. Huh?? Who goofed? Tannin 09:18 Mar 27, 2003 (UTC)

there are many nations that have not weighed in. i can list all the nations who have not announced or been implied, if you wish. Kingturtle 16:23 Mar 27, 2003 (UTC)

Thanks Kingturtle. I don't think we need to name them, though any particularly prominent ones could be mentioned as examples, but a para saying something like 87 countries, including XXX, YYY and ZZZ have not committed to a position is needed. Tannin

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Although Germany has declined participation of its troops, it allows the US army to use its bases and hospitals in Germany (notably Ramstein Air Base), and has also granted overflight rights. There have also been talks about Germany participating in the reconstruction. Now what makes Germany a non-member of the "coalition of the willing" and Micronesia a member? --Eloquence 09:25 Mar 27, 2003 (UTC)

I believe it has to do with political support. There's some slippage because when the term was coined it refered to a list of countries who politically supported the U.S. policy before the invasion; now it's used to describe something more amorphous. The real problem is that it's just about impossible to find an official list. If you can find it, I congratulate you. Some extensive searching on the State Department website found no details. --The Cunctator

I've compiled the lists on this page by the following means. (1) Do a Yahoo News search for Albania and Iraq; (2) see if there is a story discussing the official stance of Albania; (3) add info to the list; (4) repeat first three steps until reaching Zimbabwe. It took about 4 hours on Sunday. Kingturtle 17:03 Mar 27, 2003 (UTC)

Wow, that's really impressive. I hate to say this, but we need links if we're to keep this entry up-to-date and accurate. In particular, there are countries like Costa Rica which are on the latest White House list but you listed as not in the coalition...maybe you can pull up the links from your history. --The Cunctator 17:18 Mar 27, 2003 (UTC)

I'll find some time this weekend to add the references. Although, the Yahoo news stories don't last forever; they disappear after a few months. Kingturtle 18:20 Mar 27, 2003 (UTC)

I started putting in the references. My concern is that most of them are from yahoo news, and i think they have a shelf life. so what happens in a year or so, when the links are dead? Kingturtle 03:19 Mar 28, 2003 (UTC)

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could there be somehow a clear division between what "coalition of the wiling" and "coalition forces" are ? ant

My take -- this is an article about the Coalition of the Willing, not about those who oppose it. The opposition lists should be removed. Also, what happened to Slovenia? They were part of the coaliton but are no more? And PLEASE put links around the names of the countries. I tried, but got edit conflicted out. -- Zoe

This is awful. All of those links will be seriously out of date soon, and this is supposed to be an article for the ages, not for the current date. How long do you think newspaper aricles stay online? And if (and likely, when) nations change sides, the links will have to be changed, and that is going to prove very difficult. -- Zoe

I did extensive research to create the support/opposed/neutral/undecided lists as a way to clear up the ambuguity and confusion of which nations exactly are among the 'willing.' The White House and press lists have been inaccurate. I wanted an accurate list. As for the links, those were added because the Cunctator suggested we needed them to maintain accuracy. I thought it was a good idea, at least for the time being. I feel it is important for people to have a clear understanding of who exactly is among the willing and who exactly is in opposition to the willing. As for the article itself, I agree, it is getting messy. I'll take a bold step to tidy up. We can always revert back if I screw up. Kingturtle 14:14 Mar 28, 2003 (UTC)

You've done a great job so far, KingTurtle. Go ahead and edit as you see fit.

(Afterthought - I wrote that before seeing your latest edit. Haven't read it yet. Tannin)

BTW, I'm three-parts finished doing a reasonably lengthy new entry to be called Australian contribution to the 2003 Gulf War or something similar (it's a sucky title, so sing out if you can think of a better one). This page will need to link to it somewhere. Tannin 14:40 Mar 28, 2003 (UTC)

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comment left in the main article from someone "Well, I think it's still a fair point to make, whether it's greater or less than it was at the time of the Gulf War. But as of today, there were 46 nations in this coalition"

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Kingturtle: Looking great; I added back the "nature of support" listing because it's useful information, even if imperfect, and because though we try to include references (thanks!) we don't rely on them. That is, we assume that Wikipedia will outlast outside references, so it's better not to write "For information on x, see [1]", but to include the information, and include the reference. --The Cunctator

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Naming See also: Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Iraq war)

Is coalition of the willing a reasonable name for the entry? Nations supporting the 2003 invasion of Iraq is one alternate possibility. However, the content specifically describes the nations described as the coalition of the willing, both before the invasion (in which case the entry name might be Nations supporting the U.S. position on the 2003 Iraq disarmament crisis) and then during.

Coalition of the willing seems to be a better catch-all entry, IMHO. --The Cunctator

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It's an abscure, trendy phrase which won't mean much to readers in years to come. Let's try to write a timeless article. I also changed a lot of presnt-tense verbs to past-tense, in the opening paragraphs.

The slogan coalition of the willing is being used for propaganda purposes. It should not be the name of an article whose scope transcends that propaganda. coalition of the willing should be that article about the sloagan, or if there's not enough info about the slogan to merit a seperate article, then it should be a disambiguator or a redirect.

I'm splitting the article intoe coalition of the willing and U.S. allies against Iraq. --Uncle Ed 11:19 Mar 30, 2003 (UTC)

Move it back, Ed. You are getting downright unreasonable with unilaterial decisions lately. This one is wrong. Mav says so, Cunc says so, and so do I. Listen to the majority this time. Tannin 12:22 Mar 30, 2003 (UTC)

Actually, if you read User talk:Maveric149 you will see that he agreed with the split. So if it's a matter of voting, the tally is currently 2 to 2, tied at keeping the split. Please read the other talk at Talk:U.S.-led_coalition_against_Iraq.

Anyway, I'm done for today, because I never engage in edit wars. Do as you like. --Uncle Ed

How can I? I need a sysop to do that. Tannin

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The deleted passage is:

"The phrase was first used publicly on November 20, 2002 by U.S. President George W. Bush in Prague during a joint news conference with Czech President Vaclav Havel, just ahead of a NATO summit."

"Origins of the phrase are unknown" is simply wrong. The phrase came out of the White House, and we know exactly when it was first used. This must be left in for the historical record. -Kingturtle 23:38 Apr 2, 2003 (UTC)

Except 20-Nov-2002 was not the first time it was used, unless the Associated Press is employing time travellers or psychics. Here [2] (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002-11-14-iraq-warning_x.htm) is a reference to the phrase from 14-Nov-2002. -º¡º

Who cares what exact week it was used? The Bush quote makes it clear that he was engaging in political rhetoric. And that he did so way back in last autumn. --Uncle Ed 00:14 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)

I accept the fact that Bush said the words "Coalition of the willing" in November of 2002. I also accept the fact that Bush said the word "Iraq" in November of 2002. These facts prove neither that Bush originated the phrase "Coalition of the willing" nor that Bush originated the word "Iraq". Since the phrase well predates these dates, why attempt to credit it to Bush -º¡º

That is an excellent reference. You're right; 20-Nov *cannot* be said to be the first public usage, nor can we yet attribute it. However, the date is still important because Bush called on NATO allies to form a "coalition of the willing." I would like to find out when and where he said it before 20-Nov. Kingturtle 00:22 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)

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With all that said, I have a question. The article now lists two uses for the phrase: to governments that supported (1) the U.S. position in the Iraq disarmament crisis and (2) later the March 2003 invasion of Iraq. In the next paragraph, it mentions that the phrase has been around since the late 1990s. Was the phrase originally used for the first usage expressed in the article, or are there other usages that we need to list? Kingturtle 00:26 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)

I believe the article is fundamentally wrong in nature. "Coalition of the willing" is a longstanding phrase used to refer to nations acting collectively outside the jurisdiction of the United Nations. The entire slant of the article makes it sound like this originated with the current administration. -º¡º

Whether the phrase is new or old, this article is important because an adminstration of a nuclear power has utilized the phrase to give proof of support for an action that wouldn't pass the U.N. security council. If there is a longer history of the phrase, then add it to the article. Kingturtle 01:43 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)

This is an excellent chance for us all to exercise our ability as editors to be "neutral" as far as writing this article is concerned. Many people think that the phrase "coalition of the willing" is misleading, inaccurate, self-serving, etc. Fine and good! Then add to the article all the points of view about the phrase. If some legal expert, politician or even a (mere) columnist or celebrity says that Bush's "coalition" is X or Y or Z, then put that into the article. --Uncle Ed 01:50 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)

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On March 30, Ed Poor "split into 2 articles: one about the slogan, the other about allies, supporteser, neutrals and opponents." Where exactly is the article about the allies and opponents? Am I just not seeing it? Kingturtle 01:51 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)

It's at the poorly-name page, U.S.-led coalition against Iraq. It really should be split up and/or merged with Worldwide government positions on war on Iraq. --Uncle Ed 02:01 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)

thanks. i knew that but forgot. Kingturtle 02:12 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)

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Why exactly is there such opposition to putting a reference to GW Bush's 20-Nov-2002 use of the phrase? Kingturtle 02:12 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)

Oh, I just don't understand what is important about that specific reference. It wasn't the first time Bush said it, it wasn't the first time an American president said it. Why the fixation on the fact that he said it on 20-Nov-2002? -º¡º

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As written, the article seems rather POV. Is this article supposed to be about the phrase "coalition of the willing", or the concept itself (the concept being, as I understand it, an alliance of nations willing to act militarily outside the framework of the United Nations)... ? If it's about the phrase, fine. If it's about the concept itself, we should add a section which lists past examples of such coalitions (the coalition behind the first Gulf War, NATO's involvement in Kosovo, the Allied Powers in World War II (acting outside the League of Nations, which eventually dissolved), I'm sure the list goes on. 66.27.202.81[?] 02:30 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)

Good question. I thought it was supposed to be about the phrase "coalition of the willing", and not about the concept in general. But since the phrase refers to the concept, what to do? -º¡º

The article began in the context of the Bush Administration's use of the term "coalition of the willing" to refer to nations that would act in concert to overthrow Saddam Hussein. If there is another documented meaning of that phrase, I have yet to discover it.

Probably a lot of consideration should be given to the point that Bush is willing to sidestep the UN. He may even dismiss it as an "authority". If so, we should write about this dismissal, as well as about any advocates who assert that the UN has (or should have) authority to dictate who may or may not start a war.

Of course, this leads into difficult concepts such as world government and universal jurisdiction ... --Uncle Ed 02:44 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)

IMHO this article does not stand by itself. France has no UN mandate in the Ivory Coast. The US has no UN mandate in Afghanistan. Russia has no UN mandate in Chechnya, nor did it have one in Afghanistan. China has no UN mandate in Tibet or Taiwan. Britain had no UN mandate in The Falklands[?]. NATO had no mandate in Bosnia. Maybe this should go under Jurisdiction of Supranational Organizations[?] or something not so decidedly POV as this article. Are we going to document every meme from this war? How about an article on Old Europe[?] ? Chadloder 02:54 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)

I must be missing something. Two people have said the article is POV, but I don't see it. I must be blind, or overlooking some bias that is so obvious it is staring me in the face. -º¡º

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Hi Ed. Temporarily leaving aside "UN Authority" and "world government", I want to focus on your statement that the article began in the specific context of Bush's use of a coalition acting to overthrow Saddam. I think that context was the source of my problem with the prior tone of the article.

Assumption:

• Bush was the first president to use the phrase "coalition of the willing", and he first did it to justify operations in Iraq.

Counterexamples:

• Bush used the phrase "coalition of the willing" to refer to actions before Iraq.
• Bush was not the first president to do so.

Sometime in the early to middle 1990s "coalition of the willing" came to be used by western politicians, diplomats, and analysts to refer to the need for an alternate force structure when objectives could not be achieved (or were blocked) through UN mandate. Bush didn't make the idea up, it was established before he got there. The United States had already had precedent for either threatening or actually saying "forget the UN, we'll arrange our own damn coalition". -º¡º

That is very well put. Why not say it somehow in the article? Kingturtle 03:11 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)

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No, I disagree entirely. It is still possible within the framework of the United Nations to have a coalition of the willing. The UN is designed so that unanimity is not required for action.

Also I feel (contrary to some others who weighed in above) that it is worthwhile to document when the phrase first entered the lexicon. Can we get more references from those who've researched it? For example, UN Secretary General Kofi Annan used the phrase coalition of the willing on February 13 1997 during a press conference at the UN headquarters:

QUESTION: On Zaire, there is no peace-keeping force going there because people said there were no refugees. Now that refugees are starting to reappear, do you see any concerted international action or is this a "mission impossible" of trying to do something diplomatically.

SECRETARY-GENERAL: I think the situation in eastern Zaire, in particular for the refugees, is very tragic. Perhaps, in retrospect, the multinational force should not have been disbanded. It should have been suspended in order to be reactivated. Whether that would have been possible or not is difficult to say, but to create a multinational force you need to have a coalition of the willing and the will. In the absence of the willing and the will, there is very little the United Nations can do in terms of putting in a force.

Chadloder 03:17 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying the history of the phrase. Now I'm more glad than ever that I started dividing up the original article into:

• one about the phrase and its various uses
• one about the nations opposed to Iraq

Well, I've done enough damage for one night. I gotta catch some Z's. Good night all. :-) --Uncle Ed

So this article should have something in it about the phrase's earlier usage. The origins of the phrase should be divorced from GWB, and the article should discuss the recent rise of the phrase into popular language. Kingturtle 03:32 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)

Here [3] (http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/archives/whitehouse-papers/1994/Jun/1994-06-05-Presidents-ABC-Interview-on-USS-George-Washington) is a speech where Clinton mentioned in 1994 using a "coalition of the willing" in sanctions against North Korea in the event he couldn't get the UN to go along with him.

Clinton: "The real question is could we have what has been called a coalition of the willing that included as many nations as would observe the sanctions as possible. The answer to that is, we would certainly consider that if we failed at the United Nations."

The phrase has also been used to describe the coalition of nations involved in peacekeeping in East Timor in 1999. In 1 (http://www.etan.org/et99b/september/1-4/4uscit.htm), Australian Foreign Minister Alexander Downer[?] is quoted as saying:

"You could put together a force which is described in United Nations parlance as a 'Coalition of the Willing'"

Well done. I like the precision this article is taking. Kingturtle 17:24 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)

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Ok, it looks to me like we have identified several ways that "Coalition of the willing" is used. Here is what I am seeing:

• To refer to countries acting together, outside a UN approved framework.
  • Examples: Bosnia, Afghanistan, Iraq 2003, ?
• To refer to countries acting together, within a UN approved framework.
  • Examples: East Timor, ?
• Specifically to refer to the 2003 Iraq war forces.
  • Specific: Iraq 2003

Any others? -º¡º

In regards to the first definition, should it be added that the countries acting together are organized and/or led by one specified country. At the end of [4] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1668948.stm) a UN deputy representative makes such an implication. Also, have we found any examples to fulfill the second definition? I've been looking. Kingturtle 18:06 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)

I think it really boils down to two categories:

• the general idea of countries acting in concert against another -- without a UN majority vote or a US security council resolution
• specific "coalitions of the willing" like Bush's 3 or 4 dozen against Iraq

Having defined the general idea and given some examples (Iraq, Timor, etc.) we can go on to describe what various advocates out there feel about the legitimacy of sidestepping the UN. My understanding is that since the early 1990s, there has been a lot of polarization around this latter issue. Some people say, for example, that the US should take a leading role -- and the heck with the UN. Others say, the US should defer to the UN as an authority; some of the latter group even want the UN to become a world government. (This ties in with the idea of the ICC, various international treaties, etc.)

--Uncle Ed

Ed, I think discussing the "legitimacy" of the UN is an excellent idea, but I don't know if here is the place. There are already attempts made at Iraq disarmament crisis, NATO bombing campaign in Yugoslavia, Israeli settlement. Rather than pound on it over and over for every crisis that comes up, maybe it belongs at New World Order or International law? -º¡º

I don't know where it belongs. I just know that for the last year or so, it's been scattered all over the place. Worse, the implicit assumption that the UN is (or ought to be) a higher authority than any national government has crept into a number of articles.

Implicit assumptions get in the way of neutrality. How can we be neutral on an issue when "everyone knows" so and so? When it "goes without saying"? --Uncle Ed