Encyclopedia > Talk:Unification Church

Article Content

Talk:Unification Church

In this article, mention is made of their "novel view of the Trinity", while the Trinity article lists the Unification Church among groups that don't believe in the Trinity at all. It would be helpful to further describe what their view of the Trinity is and perhaps how it compares to the classical view. --Wesley, a trinitarian

I will write this up soon. For now, the UC considers God to be unique, absolute and eternal. Jesus is a human being who achieved perfection. The holy spirit is an essence or force. (This is rough and needs more detail, which is why there's no Unification Trinity article or section.) --Ed Poor

Selected quotes on Jesus from the Divine Principle:

Jesus may well be called God because, as a man who has realized the purpose of creation and who lives in oneness with God, he has a divine nature. Nevertheless, he is not God Himself.

While on earth, Jesus was a man no different from any of us except for the fact that he was without the original sin. Even in the spirit world, where he has abided since his resurrection, Jesus lives as a spirit, as do his disciples. The only difference between them is that Jesus abides as a divine spirit, emitting brilliant rays of light, while his disciples, as life spirits, reflect that light.

A 400-word explanation of Trinity is at [1] (http://www.unification.net/dp96/dp96-1-7#Sec4_2) (Note that it's buzz-word laden. It contains 6 unique terms plus 9 terms used in special senses!)

Thanks Ed. I look forward to the fuller write-up. One thing I conclude from the above synopsis is that even though the Unification and Orthodox churches have very different teachings concerning the Trinity, the Trinity remains a practical doctrine, because it describes who God is, who we are, and what hope there is for the relationship between God and humanity. Peace, --Wesley

Um, was there a particular Washington Times article that link is supposed to point to, or is the Washington Times itself somehow related to the Unification Church? --Wesley

Rev. Moon directed members of the UC to start the Washington Times, in 1982. Ed Poor

I think there should be an explanation of why it's called the Unification Church. I assume it has something to do with a desire for unity, but that's not explicitly spelled out. --Eric

Good point, Eric. My understanding is the Sun Myung Moon did not want to start just another denomination, but rather to create a movement that would unite all the denominations of Christianity. "Association for the Unification of World Christianity" is part of the long form of the church's name.

The church sees the Last Days as a time when the evil sovereignty of Satan will lose power and the good sovereignty of God will gain ascendancy. How quickly this happens is based in part on how much Christianity accepts the second coming of the Messiah, who will be born as a man on the earth.

Ed Poor

And that second Messiah is Sun Myung Moon, right? What would happen if he were to die? --Wesley

If Reverend Moon is "the Messiah" where are all the miracles? Where are the signs and wonders? "Tongue-in-cheek ED ly," one miracle was that Moon evaded taxes for a time. Next miracle would be for Ed to answer questions about his so-called software engineering skills. (then he get a plain cheese pizza slice, cold, to warm up in the microwave!)

In general, miracles are too flashy and expensive. The tax issue, which I was hoping not to get into will be covered in detail (since you ask) in a /tax[?] case article (hint: the term trumped up charges comes to mind). As for my alleged software engineering skills, I'm still looking for the person who started that rumor. I'm a poor programmer, just ask my boss. But I will take that slice!! Ed Poor

You might have been (partly) kidding, but nonetheless I wrote these two articles in response to your comment: tax case, imprisonment

Thanks for restoring the nickname, Anome. Ed Poor

Thanks for thinking of my church, Vicki. Your edit has the "potential" to "warm" global interest in our international wedding <goofy grin>.

The church has been accused of doing so because of immigration rules.

Does the above mean "acceused of doing so to evade immigration rules, i.e., forming sham marriages for, say, economic advantage? If so, who is saying so, and what evidence do they give?

The only accusations I've heard were by the Phillipine government, which refused to recognize several marriages between South Koreans and Filipinas. Please tell what you know; such info should be in the article. Ed Poor 09:54 Jul 24, 2002 (PDT)

I put it vaguely because I couldn't remember whether it was Uruguay, Brazil, or another South American country: the accusation is that Moon deliberately arranged for church members from that country to marry Koreans so those Koreans could immigrate and own land. (I tried a quick Web search, but it seems to have slid out of the news stories. More later, if I get the time.) You seem to know more about this than I do--you could add the Phillipine info. Vicki Rosenzweig

There's a link to global warming at the bottom of the page, that points to the general article on global warming. That article makes no mention of the Unification Church. What does one have to do with the other?? I confess I'm a bit mystified. Wesley

I haven't the slightest idea, Wesley. I saw it last week and was going to remove it, but I make a policy of avoiding peremptory reversions on anything dealing with my church. I am such a fervent advocate for my church that I have frankly given up trying to write from a neutral point of view on it, so I look to people like you to keep me honest.

Interestingly, it was just after I fussed with Vicki over global warming potential that she adding something uncomplimentary about arranged marriages and immigration law to the Unification Church article. I'm going to let it stand, because I make it a point not to debate about my religion on wikipedia. Let others say what they will. Ed Poor

?!? Well, if there's no connection between the two, and the Unification Church has nothing to do with the global warming issue, I'm going to delete the link to global warming. If someone has a reason to put it back, I hope they'll share that reason, either by adding to the main article or explaining on this Talk page. As it is, it just looks very random. And Ed, I understand your reluctance, but if there's a clear factual misstatement and *nobody* is backing up the claim or providing any support for it, as seems to be the case here, I don't think you have anything to worry about. Wesley

Query about names: while looking for info about arranged marraiges and immigration, I came across this odd statement: "Mr Moon?s organisation has lately shed much of its spiritual identity, to concentrate instead on such issues as family values and world peace. Indeed it recently dropped the word "church", renaming itself the Association of Families for Unification and World Peace."

If this is true, it belongs in the article--but I don't want to do that on one source. Ed, it's your church: has it changed its name? Vicki Rosenzweig

Yes, for the most part. There are a few church entities that for legal or administrative reasons retain the old "Holy Spirit Association for the Unification of World Christianity" name (HSA-UWC). For example, http://www.hsabooks.com (online church bookstore), and my friend Mike Shea hasn't changed the URL of the http:/www.unification.org website. But we've been "The Family Federation for World Peace" for several years now (see http://www.familyfed.org ).

One thing I want to make sure of is that people don't misunderstand the reason for the name change. The quote you cited seems like just the sort of misunderstanding we'd like to avoid: we didn't "shed our spiritual identity" if that means (a) transform into a different kind of religion or (b) change our name to conceal anything. If anything, we've broadened our aims, but we're still the same old Moonies you know and love :-) Ed Poor

Okay, so can you (as someone sympathetic to the church) write a sentence or two about this and put it in the article? I think the current name should be there. Vicki Rosenzweig

I'm not sure I can be NPOV about my religion. Let me pray about it... --Ed

I'm also not sure whether (a) the Unification Church itself is changing its name, or rather (b) the main projects the church has initiated are being combined into one over-arching organization. It might be some combination of A and B.

In any case, the overall aims of the Unification Movement have not changed in the slightest. Father Moon is still trying to do what he set out to do in 1946 (eight years before the church founding), which is establish the Kingdom of God on earth. The structure and name of any organizations created to attain these goals can be varied as needed, I suppose, but the overall goal remains unchanged. Ed Poor 12:07 Jul 24, 2002 (PDT)

Church members take its teachings, the Unification Principle or Divine Principle, seriously.

This seems pretty insulting to me. Could you imagine an article saying "Episcopalians take their Church's teachings seriously" or "Sufi Muslims really do believe in their own religion!" Am I missing something? DanKeshet 12:10 Aug 15, 2002 (PDT)

I agree. That sentence should be taken out. I have winced every time I've read it, and I'm the one who wrote it. --Ed Poor

From the article:

The church teaches that ...Reverend Moon is the messiah, and that all the historical founders of all other religions have recently, in Heaven, proclaimed Moon's messiahship.

This is not an official church teaching, although the vast majority of members believe that Reverend Moon is the Messiah. As for other founders' proclamation of Moon's messiahship, I would say that not so many members would endorse that. Quite a few of my fellow members have expressed doubt about the authenticity of recently channeled messages from the spirit world, such as that concerning the December 2001 "proclamation". FWIW, I believe both points; still, neither is an "official" church teaching. --Ed Poor

Ed, you're just plain wrong. This is the teaching of the Unification Church. It is the teaching of Reverend Moon himself. If you disagree with him, then you are rejecting a person that the Church teaches is the infallible messiah/leader. By definition, the teachings of the Unification Church are written by Reverend Moon, not the layity. RK

Regarding the anti-Semitism charge, none of the dozen or so Jewish men I know who have joined the church regard Rev. Moon or his teachings as anti-semitic (although having joined, they might be not be objective on this point). One of these men, Dr. Andrew Wilson, teaches Old Testament at our seminary. I recall reading the AJC report in the late 1970s shortly after joining the church, but it seemed to boil down to this:

So some people who have rejected Judaism, and joined what the majority of Americans view as a cult, don't have a problem with Rev. Moon? Of course not! By definition, anyone who accepts Moon as their infallible messiah won't disagree with them. But what does that prove? I am curious...why not respect the opinions of the majority of Orthodox Jews, Conservative Jews and Reform Jews who are deeply upset by Moon's statements? Jews find these teachings deeply anti-semitic and offensive. It doesn't matter if it is Rev. Moon saying it, or any of the pre-mediveal church fathers, or Martin Luther says it. Sterotyping and damning Jews is something Jews take offense at. RK

The church taught that (A) Jews committed sins during the Old Testament era, and (B) the worst sin was failing to recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

But Moon's claims are much worse than that. He repeatedly damns every Jew living at the time as a deliberate sinner. In modern terms, that is what many people would call hatespeech. How can anyone teach these things about Jews, yet expect them not to respond with pain and shock? RK

For those who consider any criticism of Jews as necessarily "anti-semitic", there is nothing more to be said. My church frequently criticizes sin, whether committed by its own members, historical personages (like Hitler and Stalin), or identifiable groups (like the Japanese nation in WWII, or Christianity during the Crusades).

That's insulting. No one ever claimed that any one particular criticism of any one particular Jew, or group of Jews, is anti-Semitic. Rather, it was pointed out that the slander of all Jews as damned sinners is what is so disturbing. Please do not obfuscate the point. RK

From my point of view, criticism is not necessarily adverse. If you look at Rev. Moon's Statement On Jews And Israel (http://www.tparents.org/Moon-Talks/sunmyungmoon76/SM761200.htm), whose URL I added to the article, you might see some of the positive things Rev. Moon has said. --Ed Poor 13:15 Aug 15, 2002 (PDT)

No one ever said that mere criticism is adverse. But anti-semitic canards are hatespeech. Your attempts to evade the point bother me. RK

Rabbi A. James Rudin, Assistant Director of the Interreligious Affairs Department of the American Jewish Committee wrote in December 1976 [2] (http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups/moonies/jews_div_principle.asp):

A systematic analysis of this 536 page document reveals an orientation of almost unrelieved hostility toward the Jewish people, exemplified in pejorative language, stereotyped imagery, and sweeping accusations of collective sin and guilt.

Whether he is discussing the "Israelites" of the Hebrew Bible or the "Jews" as referred to in writings of the New Testament period, Rev. Moon portrays their behavior as reprobate, their intentions as evil (often diabolical), and their religious mission as eclipsed.

There are over 36 specific references in Divine Principle to the Israelites of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) -- every one of them pejorative. The "faithlessness" of the Israelites is mentioned four times on a single page (p. 330).

I would like to replace the article's anti-semitism passage with the following:

In the mid-1970s, before the church was well known, some Jewish leaders accused it of anti-semitism. For example,

Nonsense. The church was very well known among cult experts, including the author of this study. RK

Rabbi A. James Rudin, Assistant Director of the Interreligious Affairs Department of the American Jewish Committee wrote in December 1976 that the Divine Principle's "pejorative language . . . reveals an orientation of almost unrelieved hostility toward the Jewish people." [3] (http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups/moonies/jews_div_principle.asp)

Rev. Moon responded with full-page ads in major newspapers, saying, "The Unification Movement categorically condemns anti- Semitism, the most hideous, abject and cruel form of hatred" and chiding those who "did nothing to rescue the victims who were the captives of [Hitler's] satanic plans and designs." [4] (http://www.tparents.org/Moon-Talks/sunmyungmoon76/SM761200.htm)

--Ed Poor 14:57 Aug 15, 2002 (PDT)

I rejectany attempt at whitewashing this encyclopaedia entry. The small amount of text originally added was accurate and in accord with NPOV. I could have written several paragraphs, but refrained from doing so at the time. But this attempt to whitewash milennia-old anti-semitic canards as some kind of friendly constructive criticism is appalling, and not at all convincing. RK

I don't want a whitewash either:

Please note that the only change I have made to the article re: anti-semitism is to add the external link to Rev. Moon's Statement On Jews And Israel (http://www.tparents.org/Moon-Talks/sunmyungmoon76/SM761200.htm).
Rev. Moon isn't infallible: "You should not trust me so much. I am a man, and I can make mistakes. When you make a mistake, it is not such a big thing. But if I make a mistake, the entire providence may be affected. Instead of just trusting me, you should be praying for me, asking God that He will be able to guide me." (source: Dan Fefferman (http://www.unification.net/uts/danfeff/), former UC official)
Neither Rev. Moon nor the Divine Principle condemns "all Jews" or "every Jew living at the time" as damned sinners.

Have you read Statement On Jews And Israel (http://www.tparents.org/Moon-Talks/sunmyungmoon76/SM761200.htm)? --Ed Poor

It seems that the page's section on the teachings of the church are inconsistent. It says that the church has a "strong denial that Jesus came to die" - and about two lines later it says that "Jesus had to go the alternate course of dying on the cross". So what is it - does the church believe that Jesus died or did not die? Andre Engels

Jesus did die (He was crucified by the Romans), but His death on the cross was not predestined. If his disciples had been more faithful, and in particular if John the Baptist had supported him, he would not have had to go the way of the cross. He could even have been accepted as the Messiah in his lifetime by the Jewish people.

Okay, I will adapt the page to say that in such a way that it's clear to me too. Andre Engels

I have edited in the text from "Unification Church and Jesus". In case anyone disagrees with any editings to that text I have made in moving it here, the original text was:

The Unification Church teaches that Jesus' supreme sacrifice at Calvary and the atoning blood of the cross grants us the redemption of sins. His resurrection was victory over death, hell, sin and the grave for all eternity

Andre Engels

Now that you mention it, I'm not 100% sure about "his death serves as a redemption of our sins". I'll look into it, next chance I get. --Ed Poor

"In 2002, the church published a message purporting that all the historical founders of all other religions have recently, in Heaven, proclaimed Moon's messiahship (see Clouds of Witnesses)."

This is ungrammatical. You can't purport something; you have to purport <infinitive> something. So it'd have to be "which purports to demonstrate that", or possibly "claiming that". I'm not modifying this myself since I haven't read the message in question and don't want to inadvertently misrepresent this; nevertheless it needs fixing. --AW

I don't want to squelch any "negative" information, but... does the paragraph about being forced to sell squid and being related to the Aum cult really belong here? Of course, I might be unconsciously biased, since I'm a member of this church :-) --Uncle Ed 20:45 Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)

You're right, Ed. It has nothing to do with antisemitism. The writing here is unclear, and it needs links to substantiate the claims. According to which ex-members? Says who? Which members are forced? How are they forced? When? Where? Why? How often? What do the ellipses at the end mean? And that's only the first sentence. It's painful. Here is the removed text:

According to ex-members the Unification Church members are forced to go sell church merchandiese such as pots and vases and dry squid etc....

In Japan, the unification church is known as brother cult of Aum the sarin terror cult. Some leaders of Aum were from the unification church.Hayakawa[?]

Q 21:56 Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)

Nice of you to take that unflattering stuff out, but I suppose we could dig up a paragraph or two of testimonies by ex-members. "They forced me to go fundraising 18 hours a day". The force being emotional and mental pressure, one supposes. Which of course leads into the whole brainwishing controversy. What strange power did Rev. Moon have over these hapless souls? How did he get American young people by the hundreds to give up promising careers to devote themselves, etc.? It's all rather boring to me, as Eileen Barker's book clearly shows that 90% of anyone who ever joined the UC in America simply dropped out within 6 months or so. People stay or go as they wish, so what's the fuss? --Uncle Ed

There's a controversy about brainwishing? I wish everyone had a brain! --Eloquence

I could while away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head, I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain. [5] (http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Hills/6396/ifionly.htm)

I meant brainwashing. Uncle Ed

Moved from Ed Poor's talk page:

Is Wikipedia one of Unification Church business? I was told so. Then I found you(The church member) are an administrator.

By that standard, Wikipedia must be an atheist business, a gay business, and a German business, as there are admins from all of these groups. Not particularly telling, is it? --Brion

You left out the powerful vegan meat-eating communist anarchist lobby. Koyaanis Qatsi

Who is the communist ??? Ant

D'oh. Important word up there, "administrator." Tell Mr. McCarthy to go back to sleep, nothing to see here. ;-) Koyaanis Qatsi

As far as I know, the Unification Church (UC) does not own any businesses, at least in America; several UC members, however, have started business both to advance UC ideals and also (hopefully) to make money to contribute to the UC.
Wikipedia is not a business; soon, Jimbo will be incorporate Wikipedia as an official "non-profit organization". Moreover, neither Jimbo nor Larry, the two men who started Wikipedia, had had any contact with the UC until I jumped into the wiki-pond about a year after they started it.
If you're trying to discredit the Wikipedia by "linking" it to the UC, you'll have to try harder than that!
I haven't the slightest idea how I wound up getting sysop and developer rights, unless it's that I help out a lot and do what I'm told ^_^ --Uncle Ed 16:21 Feb 18, 2003 (UTC)

Perhaps sie means that wikipedia is a "front" for the international Unificationist conspiracy? ;-) Martin

 211.23.199.103 (Uncle Ed=Ed Poor, right?)

Since this site is maintained by unification church member,you cant trust all of information on this page.***

The article (not a site) is open for anyone to update. To say it is "maintained" by anyone is incorrect. -- Zoe

One of Wikipedia:Administrators is unification church member... maybe more?

So what? Anyone from anywhere has full access to edit these pages. -- Zoe

Thanks for the move (J & SMM) and cleanup, Zoe. --Uncle Ed 19:47 Feb 18, 2003 (UTC)

From the top of the article page:

Not related to the Unitarian Universalist Church

This is misleading. The UC's theology actualy is unitarian in that it believes in only one God -- as opposed to the "God in three persons" of most Trinitarian theologies. The UC's theology is also universalist in its teaching that every soul can, must and will eventually be saved.

The same can be said about Sikhism and some forms of Judaism, though they are in no way connected. I think we should be careful to avoid implying any link between the Unitarian Universalist Church and the Unification church, as they are plainly different organisations. Incidentally members of the Unitarian Universalist Church are not necessarily Unitarian, though I would be surprised if they were not Universalist. -- Chris Q 16:14 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)

I guess the sentence was meant to prevent confusion, since Unification and Unitarian start with the same three letters and sort of rhyme a bit. I'd like to think, though, that the Unification Church has achieved sufficient name-recognition that disambiguation isn't really needed.

I should add a section to the article comparing and contrasting Unitarianism with Unificationism. --Uncle Ed 14:06 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)

It may be misleading, but I think a line of that nature is useful - those of us who are unfamiliar with the UC and the UUC occasionally confuse the two. It could probably be phrased better, though, and maybe placed at the bottom instead of the top. Martin

As Eloquence notes, this article needs a lot of work. And *sigh* who better to fix it up than I? (If 26 years of membership in it has taught me anything...)

I'd like to start by noting that although the church's theology is "unitarian" (as opposed to the 90% of Christianity that is trinitarian), it has no relation to the Unitarian Church[?]. Moreover, the theology and practice of the church are strongly "universalist" in the sense that it preaches that all souls can and must be saved -- and as soon as possible, let's hurry! However, it has no relation to the Universalist Church[?] other than this single theological tenet. Despite Martin's caution, the contrast with Unitarian-Universalism might be an interesting place to begin with the church's theology. I'd also like to get Wesley's advice on that, as he knows considerably more about Christianity in general than I do. I know little other than UC theology and how it differs from the mainstream.

Readers might also be interested to know a bit more history of the church, from humble beginnings in Korea to extraordinary prominence (or notoriety? :-) in America.

I'm open to suggestions about how to organize the article. Also, are there any questions people have? --Uncle Ed 21:41 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)

All Wikipedia text is available under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License

Search Encyclopedia

Search over one million articles, find something about almost anything!