Talk:Saddam Hussein

Talk:Saddam Hussein/Archive 1 - 02:35 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

We Westerners can be terribly ignorant at times. We insist on thinking about things from other people's cultures as if all we need to do is translate the words on a surface level and of course the basic underlying concepts are the same. The way that we Anglo-Saxons make a name is we take the father's name as our 'formal' name, and then tack on another name or two in front of it by way of disambiguation.

• John Smith has a son.
• The son's formal name is always "Smith" or "Mr Smith", same as the father's.
• So, to avoid confusion, the son is given an informal name - a given name or Christian name, and becomes "Adam Smith".
• If we want to be sure that we have the right Mr Smith, we add on a bit more information again. If Smith has a second Christian name we use that too, to make "Adam J Smith" or "Adam James Smith".
• But what if we need to be more certain - after all, there might be another "Adam James Smith" in the next suburb over. We add Smith's location as well, and say "Adam James Smith of Suburbtown".
• If that still isn't enough, we might add his age too. This is why, when you open your newspaper and see a crime report, they don't say "Adam Smith was charged with armed robbery". If they said that, and your name happened to also be Adam Smith, you could sue the newspaper for defamation (and rightly so).
• So the final step (in newspapers and the like) is to add the age as well. They say "Adam James Smith, 24, of Suburbtown was charged with armed robbery". They are not putting the "24, of Suburbtown" in because they think you, the reader, wants to know where he lives or how old he is, they are putting it in because if they don't include enough detail to identify the particular Mr Smith in question, some other Mr Smith will have his good name blackened and sue them. In courts or on legal documents, we do the same thing a different way: we use the full name and exact address: "Adam James Smith of 24 Brown St, Suburbtown".

Now the point here, of course, is that other cultures have the same need for disambiguaton that we do, and tack on extra information to the name much as we do, but they don't go about it the same way. Let's say our Mr Smith is from eastern Asia. (I'm following the practice in Bangldesh here, or at least the practice as explained to me by my Bangladeshi partner of many years ago, but I daresay it is broadly similar in many other places.)

• John Smith has a son. He calls him "Adam".
• The son's formal name is always "Adam" or "Mr Adam". He is "Adam" in a way that is rather different to the Anglo-Saxon way. In the west we "share" our names two different ways: we share "Smith" with our brothers and sisters and fathers and grandfathers and sons and daughters, and we also share "Smith" with anyone else who happens to be called "Smith". In the East, only the latter applies: your name is your name and is not shared with anyone (except unrelated people who also happen, through coincidence, to be called "Adam").
• For informal use, the son is given a family name: "Bruce". Inside the family, he is always called "Bruce". His wife calls him "Bruce", perhaps his closest friends call him "Bruce" too. But no-one outside the family ever calls him "Bruce" for any reason. That name will never appear on a legal document of any kind.
• To avoid confusion, the son is also given what we might call a "disambiguation name". There are lots of ways that this can be done. One is to specify the family relationship, with a word that means, more-or-less, "the son" or "the daughter", which would make Mr Adam something like "Mr Adam (the Son") Another way is to use the father's name. So our "Mr Adam" becomes "Mr Adam Smith" or "Mr Adam, (the son of) Smith".
• If we want to be sure that we have the right Mr Adam, we might add on a bit more information, and say "Mr Adam Smith of Suburbtown". This is done to avoid confusion with other people called "Adam". His name is Adam - not "Smith", let alone "of Suburbtown"!

(Posted via edit conflict) Tannin 02:32 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

LOL. Sorry, Tannin, the article was getty mighty long. -- Zoe

No problem, Zoe. :) And, alas, my tendency to wordiness was not helping it! Tannin

except Danny Saddam is the version used in most of the world, including most of the western world. It is a particular US phenomenon to use Hussein (with Canada and a few other states following, for obvious reasons). Curiously, in 1991 the US stations used Saddam also. It is just this time they decided to choose to use Hussein. It is the US that made the change. The rest of the world stuck with what they chose on advice to use in 1991. ÉÍREman 02:42 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

Nah, you see, I lived in the Middle East for twenty years, including during the '91 Gulf War, and I have seen him referred to as both. Actually, the most common form Is the single word version: SaddamHussein, as in al-rais SaddamHussein. The question I would ask is when his name is used with his title, what is he called: President Saddam? President Hussein? or President Saddam Hussein? Apologies if my understanding of this isn't based on "American biases". At the age of 39, I've lived in the States less than three years of my life all told. Ma'asalaam Danny

Non-Americans go looking for things to complain about. -- Zoe

If only we *had* to go looking for them it wouldn't be so bad. Trouble is we keep on getting our noses rubbed in them. Still it's better just to fix them than to complain about them. -- Derek Ross

Derek, I spend half my time on wiki de-americanising articles. That seems to be my principal role sometimes. If we don't kick up a fuss to try to remind Americans that this isn't Ameripedia but wikipedia, the american-orientation of this encyclopædia is going to keep growing and a lot of non-Americans are simply going to give up on it. It is in wikipedia's own interest to keep being reminded to avoid over americocentrism. It is because people care so much about wikipedia and getting the balance right that some of us keep raising the issue, rather than doing as so many non-Americans have done and give up in despair. ÉÍREman 16:12 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)~

Thank you, Derek, that's what I keep trying to say. -- Zoe

Re: SCCarlson cite link. Thanks - Saddam it is then. All I wanted was to avoid using a name which would be too personal in nature because this is both rude to the subject and makes us look amateurish. But since names work differently in the Arab world then the given name of "Saddam" is good enough. --mav

And quite rightly so, Mav. We need to take care with these things, and avoid the overly personal so far as possible. Here is SCCarlson's link (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20021120/saddam_hussein_name_021120/) again for thse who missed it Tannin

Can we please stop calling people from the United States Americans? Use U.S. citizens or United Stateseans or monoliguals. Kingturtle 02:52 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

I call myself American and will be cold and dead before I stop. I'm sure our British users have similar views about their incorrect adjective. --mav

Right on, Mav. Call me British or Scottish and I'll be happy. Call me English and I won't be. -- Derek Ross

NO, we cannot. I am an American. Nor am I monolingual. How many languages do you speak, Kingturtle? -- Zoe

Dunno, but I live in the US and I speak six modern and a couple of dead languages. Danny

I am a United Statesean, born and bred, and my French couldn't is as good as Goddard's is bad. Kingturtle 04:20 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

I'm a Canadian. If you call me an American, I will correct you. While it is mildly unforunate that "American" has come to mean "from or of the United States of America", it has. I suspect "United Statesean" or "Usian" will achieve a level of popular usage somewhat below GNU/Linux. :) Now, what really bothers me is calling Wikipedia "wiki" as if it was the only wiki in the world. ÉÍREman, are you listing? ;-) -- Stephen Gilbert 20:00 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

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How does one interpret this name? Some say Saddam is a surname. Others say Hussein is a surname. Others say al-Tikriti is a surname and both Saddam and Hussein are not. (anon)

as I understood what was concluded from above.

• American (and a couple of others countries such as Canada) are more used to call him Hussein
• other western countries are more used to call him Saddam
• From a westernish point of view, the surname (if he had one) would be al-Tikriti. Both Saddam and Hussein are not surnames. Hussein appears to come from his father, and Saddam is his regular name.
• But, in Irak, there is no tradition of using the surname. If it is similar as Algeria, which I know a bit, the tradition is more to say xx, son of yy from zzz (here Saddam, son of Hussein, city of al-Tikriti). The real true name is Saddam.
• In Irak, he appears to be rather refered to as Saddam Hussein

So, in the end, maybe does it not matter at all whether one name or another is a surname or is not. Either it is decided to call him the way he is called in his country (and what most people seem to agree with in any case) (Saddam Hussein), or it is decided to call him to way enblish-speaking people call him and are used to hear him called to in media. Which goes back here to a sort of US/british debate. Wikipedia states that both are acceptable. Then, let's have british and co write Saddam, while american and co write Hussein.

I would favor Saddam Hussein. Ant

I would find it redundant however to repeat Saddam Hussein over and over. Is not Hussein a surname? (anon)

Read what Tannin wrote above . Or the other posts to the same effect in the archived talk page. Of course it's not a surname. It's not a Christian name either. They don't have surnames. What colour are the feathers on your cat?

Tannin 12:59 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

I've read it. How is it not a surname? If Uday has a son named Calai, will that child be Calai Hussein? I don't believe that they don't have surnames. Now sure, Saddam made a law that surnames don't exist, but the fact that he made that law seems to indicate that they must exist. If I had two children, I wouldn't name them both Hussein, unless Hussein was a surname. You said:

• the tradition is more to say xx, son of yy from zzz (here Saddam, son of Hussein

however; he didn't name his kid, Qusai Saddam, no its Qusai Hussein. I suspect that Hussein al-Majid was a man with the surname of Hussein, who was from Majid. In any case, Saddam seems to use it as a surname.

Also note that Saddam means "one who confronts", surely that is a first name then. If Hussein is not a surname, then what does it mean? Are there Iraqis named Hussein Smith al-Baghdad? How does an Iraqi phonebook list names?

What about Barzan Hasan, Sabawi Hasan, and Watban Hasan? Would one still argue that Hasan is not a surname? (anon)

His son's names are Uday Saddam Hussein al-Tikriti and Qusai Saddam Hussein al-Tikriti. Who said anything about Saddam making a law to ban surnames?!? Mintguy 13:41 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

I said it...that's an article reference I found yesterday. It is at the bottom of the archive. But, that is hardly surprising. It was the way until recently in north african countries. I know it was the case in countries such as Algeria, Marocco some times ago, but they followed the more westernish habit to have name + surname as it is more consistant with today world in terms of identification.User:anthere

Yes Uday and Qusai are from Tikrit, if Qusai has a son will he name his son Jack Qusai Saddam, or Jack Saddam Hussein al-Geneva, or perhaps Jack Qusai Hussein al-Geneva? Something tells me that the Hussein wouldn't get dropped because its a surname. (anon)

No, the child will be Calai Uday or Cali Uday Saddam. And if that child has a son called ... er ... Tannin ... (i.e., Saddam's great-grandson), then he becomes Tannin Calai. At least that is what would happen if they stay with the patronimic (sp?). I don't know about Iraq in particular, but quite often the added-on part of East Asian names is pretty flexible, and the added-on part of the name might be different. Why do you keep insisting on imposing this Western concept of a "surname"? Tannin

There's a similar thing in Iceland. I'm quoting from an Iceland tourist guide here "If, for example, Einar has a son named "Petur", the son's name is Petur Einarsson (Peter Einar's Son). If Einar has a daughter whom he names "Margret", she becomes Margret Einarsdottir (Margaret Einar's Daughter). Members of the same family can therefore have different "last names", which often causes confusion to foreigners. If you are looking for someone in the phone directory, you look them up by their first name". Mintguy

true. Not only Iceland. This is the way in many northern europe to transmit surnames that way. In my country, the surname of a kid is not necessarily the surname of the father (though that is the most frequent case). It is now legal to give the surname of the mother, or the surnames of both parents at the same time. User:anthere

I would think, considering the war and all, that you would be able to find some kind of source discussion this topic. (anon)

How about this http://www.arab.net/arabnames/, it took me 15 seconds googling to find. Mintguy 14:27 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC), and this which is more pertinent to this particular discussion http://www.cbc.ca/news/indepth/words/saddam_hussein Mintguy 14:45 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

at least, this very interesting article is totally consistent with what I said above. I notice that my feeling that Hussein is reference to Hussein of Jordan, rather than Saddam for many people, is confirmed. :-) ant

Wow! Quite long dispute. I know from specialist that former Iraqi president full name was Saddam Hussein at-Tikriti. (simplifying to western people first name, second name and surname). In mid-70's he resigned from at-Tikriti because many people used this name to help their careers (they called themselves at-Tikriti) and made call him just Saddam Hussein. This specialist (arabist from Poland) told that it is right to call former Iraqi president just Saddam because this is his name, Hussein and at-Tikriti are to help not to confuse him with other Saddam's. Silthor 15:54 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

That is what the BBC was told, ITN was told, Reuters was told, AP was told, the Irish Times was told, Independent Newspapers was told, what academics say, what linguists say. Using Hussein is a largely unilateral choice of the US media which wikipedia should not follow. Someone once told me that using Hussein is the equivalent of calling Queen Elizabeth II II. But wikpedia on the issue of Saddam's name seems to follow the American line rather than the right one, which is disappointing but not surprising. ÉÍREman 16:12 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

let's make a putsch...

Um... I'm a bit confused as to what this argument is about. The article seems to call him what I'd expect when I'd expect. Where is he called just Hussein? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick? Deb 16:19 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

Hep correctly changed the single name references to Saddam, which is what they should be. Previously they were Hussein which is wrong. But on previous occasions, when the correct name was inserted an edit war resulted with some contributors insisting that Saddam should be replaced with Hussein. Hopefully this time another attempt to revert and put in the preferred US word (preferred largely in the US media) won't happen, and we will leave the correct one in. Forget political correctness, this is a victory for linguistic correctness. ÉÍREman 16:28 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

Okay, I see. Only I would comment that it's not necessarily "wrong" to call him Hussein, any more than it would be wrong, in an article on, say, Cliff Richard, to call him "Cliff" rather than "Richard". (Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure that article does refer to "Cliff".) It would only be wrong if it called him "President Hussein" or "Mr Hussein" rather than "Mr Saddam". Deb 16:32 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

Hussein is a disambigulation word, not a surname. Using it as a surname is the equivalent of, in the case of Queen Elizabeth the Second, treating 'the Second' as a surname. It isn't. It is a disambigulation ordinal. ÉÍREman 16:40 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

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I do not believe that the above discussion is quite correct. In Egypt, native Arab speakers addressed Gamal Abd al-Nasser as Nasser, and Syrians addressed Hafiz Assad as Assad, in formal and informal contexts. Saddat's entire name was Muhammad Anwar al-Saddat, but his first name Muhammad was rarely used while his second name Anwar, which is his father name, was familiar more than his first name.

He was Saddam Hussein at-Tikriti, but he resigned from at-Tikriti (it was to popular) in mid-70's. From that time correct is using Saddam, not Hussein. Silthor 07:58 Apr 22, 2003 (UTC)

Moreover, it is more often the son's name, not the father's name, that is the "disambiguation word." Thus, a man is likely to be addressed as "Abu ..." (or a woman, as Aum ...), that is, "Father of X" or "Mother of X."

In many Middle Eastern countries Arab-speaking people do in fact have surnames, distinct from their fathers' names. I am told that in Egypt many people prefer to use the patronym as a surname, gecause the surnames are so sommon (thus, the patronym has the disambiguation function in this case. But this does not mean that there are no surnames in these cultures.)

I suspect that people who prefer "Saddam" instead of "Hussein" do so for one of two (or both) reasons: it is a less common name than Hussein, and it connotes power and violence (sada means something like "defeated the enemy" and saddam glosses as being in conflict). Given how common a name is Hussein, it is hard to imagine it functioning as the disambiguation term, and not the far less common Saddam.Slrubenstein

It isn't a case people preferring Saddam over Hussein, it is the advice of academics, the advice of linguists, the advice of experts on name usage, the usage of the Iraqi diplomatic service, the usage of the Iraqi opposition. The universal advice, given to the BBC, given to ITN, given to EuroNews, given to RTF, given to RTÉ, given to RAI, given to Tony Blair, given to the Pope, given to the United Nations, given to the European Union, given to the Council of Europe, given to Independent Newspapers, given to the Guardian, given to the Times, given to the Irish Times, given to Examiner Newspapers, given even to George Bush senior who said Saddam (or rather 'Sodom') not Hussein. Tony Blair was shown on BBC earlier today referring to an earlier comment on what he wrongly called the "execution" of two British soldiers. He said Saddam. Sky News had an Iraqi opposition spokesman talking about Saddam. RTÉ three days ago showed a clip of an old interview with a diplomat from Saddam's regime. And what name did he use? Hussein? No. Saddam. Only America and one or two places use Hussein. The rest of the world says Saddam. Even the earlier Bush and Clinton administration said Saddam. And the State Department still says that. How more universal do you want it to be, Sirub? The guy's name could hardly be more clear-cut. BTW Al Jazeera also used Saddam.

Boy are you screwed up -- if you read what I posted, you would see that it too argues for Saddam. I was simply disputing some factually incorrect assertions on the talk page, abut Arab language and surnames. Stop being so defensive. Slrubenstein

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The link which MintGuy provided says this:

• A man's name is Ali Al-Fulani.
• He is called Ali by his friends and family.
• His family name is Al-Fulani

It would then seem that Hussein has a last name, Al-Tikriti; however, this name is not commonly used. Thus, Saddam is referred to in a manner similar to a "rock star" or the like, where he is referred to by his first name "Saddam", or "Saddam bin Hussein -- contracted to Saddam Hussein". (anon)

So . . . international diplomats, academics and the BBC are basing their naming of Saddam on how you name rock stars? I don't think so. ÉÍREman 23:26 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

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The second article states:

• With clan and tribal terms eliminated, a name had to be picked from the two remaining choices (Saddam or Hussein), and Iraq's ruler endorsed the first. Virtually everyone in the region knows him by this name, not by "Hussein," and he encourages its use - cultivating a sort of Grand Uncle persona to go with some of his other roles, including Direct Descendant of the Prophet.
• The BBC, for instance, noted that before Saddam's last "election" victory in October 2002 - there were no other candidates - telephone dial tones were replaced in many areas with the campaign slogan "Naam, naam, Saddam" (Yes, yes, Saddam), followed by a recorded message: "Saddam is the pride of my country."

In short, Saddam is used as Oprah is used. Saddam=Oprah. President Saddam is inappropriate as is President Hussein. (anon)

This being said, is it appropriate to have article at Uday Hussein and Qusai Hussein when we know that Hussein is not a surname? (anon)

There would be no problem in moving the articles to Uday Hussein al-Tikriti[?] and Qusai Hussein al-Tikriti[?], of so desired. Just remember to fix any double redirects. -- Egil 14:18 Apr 30, 2003 (UTC)

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An Essex girl goes to the council to register for child benefit.
"How many children?" asks the council worker
"10" replies the Essex girl "10???" says the council worker.. "What are their names?"
"Wayne, Wayne, Wayne, Wayne, Wayne, Wayne, Wayne, Wayne, Wayne and Wayne"
"Doesn't that get confusing?"
"Naah..." says the Essex girl "its great because if they are out playing in the street I just have to shout WAAAAAAAYNE, YER DINNER'S READY or WAAAAAAAYNE GO TO BED NOW and they all do it..."
"What if you want to speak to one individually?" says the perturbed council worker.
"That's easy," says the Essex girl... "I just use their surnames"

hah! I'm roaring with laughter. That joke has made my night. At last, a light side to Saddam, though I am damned if I know what it has to do with him. maybe one of the kids was called Wayne Saddam Hussein. ÉÍREman 17:20 Apr 30, 2003 (UTC)

I am glad. That gave me a good laugh too. The relation is about Surname and name...was it not most of what was discussed on the Saddam talk page recently ??? Ok, some black humor, if you feel like it, is here. Cheers.

I rolled back the added pictures that J.J. included. This article is already huge as it is, we have sufficient pictures now. -- Zoe

I disagree, my pictures were relevant and high quality, and I am re-adding them. -- user:J.J.

You don't think one picture is enough to show a person? I can't imagine it's something like a complicated building or physical concept that needs more than one photo to have the reader understand it and recognize it. Koyaanis Qatsi P.S. actually, for that matter, I don't think we need the 2nd or 3rd ones that are there already.

I agree with JJ. They were 100% relevant and once there is no problem with their usage, they should be included. They showed the three sides of the 'cult' of Saddam; the 'enthroned' Saddam as the great Arab leader, the 'military' Saddam (a key part of the iconography of his leadership) and the standard 'radical' image of Saddam the gunman. They were 100% useful in symbolising the aspects of the personality cult that played such an important part in his rule. They are far more relevant than the images we currently have. And given the degree of text, we need more not less pictures to make the page user-friendly. I disagree totally with Zoe's decision and think it should be reversed. ÉÍREman 04:17 May 8, 2003 (UTC)

Re Koyaanis Qatsi's comment, the answer is absolutely and totally not. You need them if

1. they inform as to the nature of the person's appeal
2. they break up a text-heavy page, and this page needs as many images as possible. It looks amateurish without them. A professionally designed encyclopædia would have no problem using these images. Why shouldn't wiki strive to look as professionally laid out and as reader-friendly as possible? We aren't dealing with an 1860s New York Times. We are dealing with a technology that has access to images and the ability to lay them out. We would be crazy not to use them. Wiki's main problem is that it has far too few images, not too many. ÉÍREman 04:17 May 8, 2003 (UTC)

There were four images in an already-exceedingly long article. And he still hasn't discussed their copyright status. -- Zoe

The longer the article, the more it needs images to break it up and give it a professionally laid out look, as opposed to school essay, which an article lacking proper illustration can look like, which acres of text alone. As to copyright, that is the only issue that could justify their removal, but only once the issue has been raised. But it is wrong to unilaterally slash images out of an article and then raise the question of copyright.

As to he still hasn't discussed their copyright status - Zoe you gave him precisely two minutes, from the moment you left a msg on his talk page to the time you removed the images. Come on, be fair. If you did that to me, either you'd get a burst of my infamous temper or I would ignore you completely and refuse to reply on a point of principle. You know how much I admire your editing work. Just be careful not to trample over some guy who has got some very good images for the article and so has clearly been working on his own time to wiki's benefit. At least give him some time to explain the origins. And give other users a chance to say whether they think there are two many images. lol ÉÍREman 05:09 May 8, 2003 (UTC)

Thanks for the defense, ÉÍREman. You have summed up my opinions perfectly so I won't bother repeating. All the photos I posted have either been used with permission, or are copyright free. I quite liked the photo of Saddam on the throne, but I'm willing to accept if a more recent photo of him is considered preferable. On a related note, and this is adressed to everyone, when it comes to copyright issues, sometimes it doesn't hurt to use a little common sense before comdeming someone as a copyright violator. If a propaganda photograph issued by a government that no longer exists is posted, I think it is fair to assume that no one is currently enforcing its terms of use. user:J.J. 06:11 May 8, 2003

If you read what it said, Graft, you would know that I did not say why that woman held up that image. The caption explained how Saddam's use of imagery was central to his ability to project himself as a great Arab leader worthy of support. No-one knows why she held up that image. But the fact that she had such an image is evidence of his mastery of the use of such images. She didn't have a photocopied image of Saddam, a cut out from a newspaper or the sort of poster you get in elections in the west. It was not some amateur image she had made herself. She had an image designed to show Saddam in a certain light, in that image Saddam the personification of Iraq. It is an image freely available in the arab countries and projects a clear message with all the subtlety of Bush and the Israeli and Palestinian prime ministers walking over a bridge together (a bridge specially constructed over a swimming pool for that one image - subminimal meaning: we are building bridges and crossing threshholds), of the visual statements made by the pope on his international visits (meaning: bringing catholicism to the people, being in touch with the people around the world), of the British royals with a rock concert in the grounds of Buckingham Palace (meaning: we are in touch with modern culture and with modern Britain), of Putin in St. Petersburg, (meaning: we are an old nation proud of our history and post-communist) etc etc. It all falls down to the power of image in agenda-setting. And Saddam as the images on the page show was a master tactician at using images. As the caption was perfectly accurate I am re-instating it. FearÉIREANN 03:31 7 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Might want to rephrase it a little - the way you wrote it implies that you meant the -woman's- use of the image etc. etc. Graft 03:34 7 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Fair point. I have changed the wording a little. Have a look and see if it is OK. If it isn't, let me know and I'll try to change it. FearÉIREANN 03:55 7 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Fine by me. Graft

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(صدام حسين) is just "Saddam Hussein", none of his other names. And I warn you, Arabic text are very difficult to deal with in most places (since it runs the opposite direction), so you need to paste it into, say, FrontPage, to work with it. Otherwise it'll completely slice up the English words in ways unimaginable. --Menchi 06:44 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)