Talk:Nigger (word)

oh my God! What the HELL is this? What is this doing in the present tense? Ed, were you trying to sound like some whiny-assed, "oh, we white people are so hard done by," educated good ol' boy? You have managed to reduce several hundred years of serious racism to "it used to be racist, but now wecan't use it because they say so." How embarassing. And, by the way, it's use among black (or African-American) people is often pejorative -- it is generally not used in regular conversation, but more often as a preface to an opposing statement, thus implying that the person on the other side of the argument is in some way (and therefore his arguments) less worthy. Perhaps you might like to re-write this to reflect a very complex subject with a lot more meaning and history than you seem to be willing to credit it with. JHK, ending a sentence with a preposition.

JHK -- I do not think Ed Poor wrote the bulk of this article. I agree with you in essence, though -- I think the real issue is that people who write article should ideally be people who have done some serious research. Slrubenstein

---

Are we going to include all offensive words we can come up with? Just seeing the title of this article made me come up short. Shall we add every single racist term? -- Zoe

Judging from your reaction, the word certainly deserves an encyclopedia entry. Especially since the word seems to have a connotation in the US that can hardly be grasped in the rest of the world. Jheijmans

This is absolutely true -- in Germany, people used the equivalent "Neger" and mean it in the sense that older people in the US still often say "Colored". Ed, if you were not responsible for the major re-write, I apologize. I looked briefly through the history, and thoght that the major changes, especially those that put the emphasis on "black people can say it, but white people can't," were yours, but I'm still getting used to the new software. JHK

Compare: white trash doesn't even come close. The use of "white trash" is nowhere NEAR as offensive. -- Zoe

---

I'm not sure what parts of the article I wrote; we could use the sophisticated compare features on the history page to find out. But I'm basing my understanding of the usage of nigger on 3 sources:

1. my white minister friend told me in 1989 that some black ministers in Nashville gave him permission to use the word, since he had become, essentially, one of them.
2. I've overheard conversations between black people who didn't seem to realize I could hear them, and their usage of nigger did not seem perjorative to me; it sounded as ordinary as man.
3. The DVD for Training Day (the film with Denzel Washington and Ethan Hawke) has a director's commentary that discussed nigger and other terms used in the film.

Perhaps context determines the degree of offensiveness... Ed Poor 13:08 Jul 23, 2002 (PDT)

I agree with you that context does determine the degree of offensiveness. The problem is that an encyclopedia article is written in the most general context, for encyclopedia articles are routinely and indeed are meant to be taken (literally) out of context (for example, Ed, your own contributions to the article do not mention the context in which you learned this -- and I am not criticizing you, as this is typical for all encyclopedia contributors). It is thus very very important to write articles that acknowledge and in some way are responsible to this fact. Slrubenstein

Thank you for the perspective, slr.

Offensiveness is in the ear of the beholder. A very useful work is Nigger: The Strange Career of a Troublesome Word by Randall Kennedy -- Zoe

Zoe, I added the book title and ISBN to the article. Anyone know how to turn the ISBN into an external link?

How do you do that trick with the ISBns? -- Zoe

---

Excellent rewrite, Mswake -- Zoe

---

Thanks!

A fairly big rewrite, though I've included several bits contributed by earlier writers, because they were good.

I've tried to express the recent use of the word "nigger" by black people in a better way, and also edited for tone to reduce the potential for Very Big Arguments. I hope I've not sacrificed objectivity; I don't think I have.

Mswake 14:09 Jul 23, 2002 (PDT)

Wow, nice job. I liked the part about "reclaiming", and the whole thing flows really well. Please write a lot more articles! Ed Poor 16:31 Jul 23, 2002 (PDT)

It's very good on the whole, but I don't understand how the Ali quote "I got nothing against no Viet Cong. No Vietnamese ever called me nigger" is reclaiming the word. -- Hotlorp

I think by boldly using it, knowing that he would be quoted world wide, Ali was, in his usual subtle way, putting down people who used the word by using it himself in what he meant to be a positive way. Ortolan88

---

Regarding Derek Ross' edit about "African non-Americans", what is the correct usage in the UK, Australia, NZ, SA, etc? Is it "negro" or "black" (I think those can still be used), or something else? Jeronimo 01:41 Aug 1, 2002 (PDT)

---

Tried to address the concerns above. I don't think we want to develop a list of "call black people this in UK, this in Australia, and this in New Zealand." As Zoe said above, "offensiveness is in the ear of the beholder", so it's impossible to be exhaustive or we'd end up with "Jim Smith of London prefers to be called 'British Ghanaian', Parminder Sangha thinks of herself as Indian first and Scottish second..." Mswake 02:21 Aug 1, 2002 (PDT)

Agreed. I like the way that you've put it in the article. -- Derek Ross

---

Things that have been renamed in modern times are items like "Nigger Brown" which was a shade of brown paint you could purchase in the UK some decades ago - also Agatha Christie's story "Ten Little Niggers" has been renamed to "Ten Little Indians" and then, "And Then There Were None" - both of these at the time they were made no-one thought anything of - a bit like the Golly-Wog - though it doesn't excuse at all the racism associated with them.

Also Guy Gibson of the Dam Busters had a black labrador called Nigger. The dog's grave can be found at RAF Scampton. The last time The Dam Busters film was transmitted on British television the word was overdubbed. Mintguy

---

Removed from article for further discussion. This may be true, but I'm thinking that, if so, there must be a better way to put it:

However, it is not possible to extrapolate from this to usages in other dialects of English, since people speaking those do not face precisely the same pattern of tensions between groups; consequently they have other current terms of abuse, and the term "nigger" is more likely to come up in the form of its historical usage than it would in the USA.

I don't think Hindus like being called nigger any more than anyone else would. Ortolan88

Not the point. ANY prescriptive usage is POV; the comment relates to other dialects' RECEIVED usages, and what is likely to come up in them. Only US usage is strongly prescriptive, and it is wrong in practice and in usage to prescribe usages when standard practice is descriptive. It is irrelevant how much other people may or may not like the usage, when the phrasing in the article is itself innocuous and describes what is more likely to turn up in our dialects. I carefully didn't even use offensive phrases.

Please explain just where it is in the world that it is historically fine to call people niggers. You simply assert it (and put it in a place that interferes with the flow of the article). As it stands, you name no "other dialects of English" where nigger is accepted and does not cause tension. The only usage I have ever heard is of Hindus, which I mentioned.

Oh, and it is quite wrong to start by vandalising and then stall - if you truly thought discussion and consensus were a high priority, you would have raised that rather than shooting first. PML.

Oh, and oh again. It is not considered vandalizing to mark a change as major, note in the summary that something is being removed, invite a discussion, post the full removed portion immediately in the talk page, along with a further comment that it may be true, followed with an invitation for comment.

If this is true, and you still have given nothing but an assertion that it is, it is well worth its own section in the article:

Places in the English speaking world where nigger is an acceptable term and does not cause tension, along with the historical reasons that this is so.

I do not engage in edit wars, so I won't take it back out, but maybe you will stop to try to make your contribution into a part of an encyclopedia article instead of getting ripped at me. Ortolan88

PS- There are also articles on terms of disparagement, yid, fag, queer, and white trash. There may be others. You may want to expand in its own article the other abusive terms you have in mind. Ortolan88

Removed again after waiting a week for someone to come up with a place or places where nigger was just fine and not in the least offensive:

However, it is not possible to extrapolate from this to usages in other dialects of English, since people speaking those do not face precisely the same pattern of tensions between groups; consequently they have other current terms of abuse, and the term nigger is more likely to come up in the form of its historical usage than it would in the USA.

Ortolan88

---

We've had this argument about local acceptability before: see above. As a non-US English speaker I'd say that "many people outside the US are aware of the offensiveness" is a drastic understatement. It's certainly "strongly prescriptive" in the UK, so it's also incorrect to say that the US is the "only" place where this is true.

"local sensibilities are mostly about different words which describe local minorities pejoratively" -- in that case, should they be discussed in this article? This is an article about the word "Nigger", not about local racism or words for minority groups: we could in theory have an infinitely long article about "places where the word Nigger is not used".

There's already a sentence in the article (2nd para) that says: "Acceptable words vary from country to country and, ultimately, from individual to individual." If there is to be a discussion of local variations on this page (which I don't think there should be), it can't do anything but lead to that conclusion. Mswake 11:57 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

For other offensive terms, another article, referenced from here. If, as this person asserts, there are places that nigger "is more likely to come up in the form of its historical usage", and presumably is quite acceptable, that is fascinating and definitely belongs in the article. Lacking either of those things, the paragraph should be re-removed. Ortolan88 14:55 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

---

Reordered the section about Ali and reclaiming, following Hotlorp's comments: as originally written (and now restored), it was meant to illustrate the reclamation process thus:

• In 1967, Ali said "No Vietnamese ever called me nigger", demonstrating that he was offended by the use of the word;
• Only 21 years later, NWA were able to use it self-referentially in an affirmative way; to some extent it had been reclaimed.

Hope that's clearer. Mswake 12:06 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

Much better, thanks! -- Hotlorp

---

I have some doubts about this sentence, and I hope others can address this knowledgably:

despite their own use of the word nigger (sanitized via spelling) the group's name was often glossed as "NWA",

I am not so sure that the change in spelling simply signals sanitizing (as in damn -> darn). I believe these are two different words with different meanings and rules for usage. I understand that one word is derived from the other, but I think there is something far more complex going on than sanitization, and the use of "nigga" by NWA does NOT signify acceptance of the word "nigger." Slrubenstein

I just changed the page by adding some of Mswake's words, since Hotlorp thought they clarified the situation. However, I should point out that that doesn't mean that I endorse their content... -- Oliver PEREIRA 16:57 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

Right -- but the thing is, I do not see NWA as "reclaiming" the word nigger....

It sure isn't attacking the word. Despite the attempts by ignorant white people to lay claim to nigga, it just hasn't worked. When the Beastie Boys played the Apollo Theater[?] in Harlem, they dashed out on stage proclaiming "How all you niggas doing?" and were received with a stunned and angry silence. Presumably they had gotten away with it with white audiences. Ortolan88

Yes, O, but NWA were not White, they were Black. I agree with you about ignorant white people attempting to lay claim to "nigga," but that wasn't what I was commenting on. I do think it matters, who uses the word and in what context (true about many words, by the way -- one of the main areas of sociolinguistics); my only point was that "nigga" and "nigger" are not the same, and by extension the rules governing their use are not identical either. Slrubenstein

I understand, but I'm thinking that even a sociolinguist would accept the "sanitized by spelling" as a form of "reclaiming" the word. And, as you say, who is using the word is important. I wrote the following in Profanity after a discussion with a friend who is writing a book on French for English-speakers:

The situation is rendered more complex when other languages enter the picture. In European Spanish, coño (cunt in English) is very common in spoken discourse, meaning no more than "Hey!" or "Christ!". Likewise, in French, merde (shit) is also quite common as an expletive. Some scholars have noted that while the French and Spanish are comfortable hearing native speakers use these words, they tend to hear the "stronger" meaning when the same words are spoken by non-native speakers. This may be similar to the differences in the acceptability of queer or nigger depending on who is saying the words.

Ortolan88

---

"This has been condemned by some as "revisionist", although the edited version apparently produced less complaints than a previous un-censored broadcast."

I don't understand the use of the word 'although' in this context. It does not seem to signal a contradiction. branko

In fact, now it would be disconcerting to hear the word nigger applied to either the dog or the name of the operation. Ortolan88

---

194.255.7.137 has changed terms such as "dark-skinned people", "African-Americans", and "black people" to "negro". Though this is strictly the correct classification I undertand many black people find it offensive. Editorial decision required.

I'm counting this as vandalism. reverted. -- Tarquin 13:40 Jan 22, 2003 (UTC)~

---

A week ago this page was looking in pretty good shape, now it's a bit of a mess... why the rewrite, Stevertigo? Mswake 14:20 Jan 29, 2003 (UTC)

The geographical name stuff is pretty good, but underdocumented. The Ebonics needs to be rewritten (written, actually) and put into its own article linked from here, but the defense of Eonics is distracting here. The subject of the article is a word. This distracts. Ortolan88

I thought it might, but then If it was left out, then there'd be less of an understanding of background= the point was to connect the word "nigger" to the rebellious attitude -d'oh~ I forgot to put "Bad Nigger" in there - as the keystone to connect them. with this in there, Some of the lenthy ebonics stuff, (redundant from the Ebonics artice - which Orto, someone could criticise saying'this history should go on a "legacy of slavery" page- I'd rather have the redundacy than just rely on the link to: but like i said some of it no doubt can be cut - i had a hard time cutting it to what it is now, and still didnt really feel happy about it. the rest im happy with for the most part, the original was way to choppy - like a whole bunch of... wikipedians wrote it ")-Stevert

---

The article says:

The metathesis that made nigger out of Negro was formerly a systemic sound change in some dialects of American English;

Who says that nigger comes from Negro? Dictionaries that I've looked at say it comes from an older form neger, which is from Middle French negre (or French nègre), which in turn is from Spanish negro. Whereas Negro is directly from Spanish (or Portuguese). --Zundark 17:24 Jan 29, 2003 (UTC)

As far as I know it comes from negro. But it it might be worth pointing out that all these words derive from Latin 'Niger': French noir/neger/negre; Spanish negro; Italian nero. In other words these different derivations are not really different; nigger is just one of many dialect variations on the same word across Latinate languages. We have the countries Nigeria and Niger (pronounced Neejer) and the river Niger. All are simply variants of Latinate forms of the word for 'black', mostly with no pejorative connotations. The interesting question is why this particular variant on the word, among many others, came to be used pejoratively. Paul

---

Should there be a link to an archive of the discussion on this page? Mswake 09:30 Mar 25, 2003 (UTC)

---

I removed this:

Another holds that it is the derivitive of the misconstrued Niger, a Latin title for the Western African nation.

because it doesn't quite make sense; the word "nigger" was used long before the country "Niger" came into existence. In any event, "Niger" is first and formost the name of a river -- the country Niger (and Nigeria) are named after the river Niger. Why would Blacks in the US be named after a particular river in Africa? What is the source for this? Let's not just have "theories," tell us which philologist, linguist, or historian suggested this "theory" and on what evidence, please. Slrubenstein

I respect your move and I should have made a statement here before any changes. Yes, Niger is a river but there seems to be a connection. I thought this was commonly known and it is even mentioned above but I will report back soon with resources. I think my link to the actual nation of Niger was misleading and not my intention but to note the Latin niger as a possible source. Again, I apologise for my impatience to discuss this in the beginning. Usedbook 01:20 Apr 9, 2003 (UTC)

The Oxford English Dictionary: Nigger (‘nIg∂(r)), Also niggar. [Alteration of NEGER. Cf. Also NIGER and NIGRE.]

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary: Function: noun; Etymology: alteration of earlier neger, from Middle French negre, from Spanish or Portuguese negro, from negro black, from Latin niger; Date: 1700

Thorne, 1990: (Noun) A black person. This word has been in use since the late 18th century. It is now a term of racist abuse when used by white speakers, although it can be used affectionately or sardonically between black speakers. The word is derived from niger, the Latin word for the colour black, via Spanish (negro), French (negre) and the archaic English neger.

Randall Kennedy: "Nigger is derived from the Latin word for the color black, niger. According to the Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang, it did not originate as a slur but took on a derogatory connotation over time. Nigger and other words related to it have been spelled in a variety of ways, including niggah, nigguh, niggur, and niggar. When John Rolfe recorded in his journal the first shipment of Africans to Virginia in 1619, he listed them as "negars." A 1689 inventory of an estate in Brooklyn, New York, made mention of an enslaved "niggor" boy. The seminal lexicographer Noah Webster referred to Negroes as "negers."" http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail-/books/0375421726/excerpt/ref%3Dpm%5Fdp%5Fln%5Fb%5F3/002-3739659-2040853

---

I just can't leave "the self-image and habitual behaviour of Slave decendants" [sic] in there. What's more, I think the previous paragraph is speculation - could we have some citations before restoring it?

I'm also deeply uncomfortable about "avoiding offense" - conjures up images of us well-meaning white people trying to work out when it's OK to say "nigger"... ugh.

As for the second paragraph of this page, as Zoe wrote on this page way, way above: "Are we going to include all offensive words we can come up with? [...] Shall we add every single racist term?"

Once more I'd like to ask -- if any black person on here wouldn't mind "outing" themselves and giving us a view, it would provide some useful balance (with the understanding that it's an individual view). Mswake 19:55 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC) ("Hideously white" (c) Greg Dyke, BBC.)

---

I reverted the page to the "pre-Zog" era edit (14:55 April 14 by Mswake) and re-added Michael Hardy's italics added on the 29th, which seem to be the only substantive edits done in the interim. Hephaestos 20:56 May 1, 2003 (UTC)

Sorry about that º¡º, missed you in the shuffle. Hephaestos

Is allright. My changes truely weren't substantial, but were part of my disambiguation plan. -º¡º

Hello

I have some information from personal experience about the word "Nigra". When I was a child growing up in Alabama in the 1950's, I sometimes heard this word. It was pronounced with a long "i", as in Niagara. It was a word for "polite society", Women, ministers, politicians, etc, who needed a substitue for "nigger'. I thought that someone might want to add this information to the article. Thank you. Billyww

---

From the article:

" Unfazed, Hagan took the case to the United Nations, where he found a more sympathetic forum. The UN ordered that Toowoomba Council change the name."

This seems dubious to me. How do you "take a case to the United Nations"? Is there a legal forum there for this? How do they "order" anything? -- Anon.