Talk:List of famous Canadians/Temp

Pretty good list. However, while I am a great fan of the Golden Jet, Bobby Hull cannot be ranked ahead of Gordie Howe. In Canada, to this day, Howe is known as "Mr. Hockey." The vast bulk of his incredible scoring records came at the time of the Original Six, when goalies had season GA averages of 1.1 (Jacques Plante as an example)

Oh, the list was supposed to be alphabetical, but I messed that up there, will fix it. Jeronimo

I made some changes in an effort to reflect history (like Mary Pickford or Christopher Plummer who is the most respected by us old farts) rather than every sector dominated by ones the younger generation knows. Similarly, in sports, hockey should not totally dominate, In terms of acomplishment, Fergie Jenkies or even Larry Walker have achieved a greater level tham 99.999% of hockey players simply because of population, extremely short playing seasons and six-foot snowbanks. Any Canadian who makes the United States MLB or NBA or NFL (or the kid from Calgary who played for England in the 2002 World Cup) is an extraordinary accomplishment. Too, Curling is very big, and the fastest growing. Because we (NA & Europe) are a cult of celebrity, these lists may have to be more than ten each to recognize diversity so long as it doesn't get out of control.

Hmm, I kinda like the "top 10" thing (not because of Letterman...), and it's recognisable as subjective and a short overview. We could expand to 15 or 20, but we then get back quickly to the long lists. I propose to stick with ten, and see where we get.

Diversity might be a good idea, and curling is certainly a Canadian national sport (should we put in Sandra Schmirler?), so we may want to reflect that. I also wasn't sure about the figure skater to put in. The same goes for diversity in time: recent/long ago.

Ideally, we should end up with a list with only blue links, of course. Jeronimo

The nature of the beast, such as in Canadian sports the overwhelming dominance of hockey, means several deserve to be on the list and if that means the list goes to 12-14 in order to tell the world Canadians participate and accomplish in other areas I think it is reasonable. When "my favourite" gets added and the list starts to balloon to 25-30+ then it (and all countries) will be ignored by new time viewers to Wikipedia.

True, and that's why I think having the limit of 10 is great. People will be thinking: "is he really famous enough to be top 10", and not write their favourite there, but in the list of sports personalities or ice hockey players, or another appropriate place.

Because of the overwhelming popularity of hockey in Canada, it may be necessary to give it a separate list from the other sports. Eclecticology

The older generation here in Canada feel the current generation is self-absorbed. (that would too include the 70+ people of the Netherlands who adore Queen Juliana, remember every minute of the War, the 53 flood etc.). My definition (and maybe I'm out of line with Wikipedia's mission) is that anything about a country should be what the people of that country want the rest of the world to know about them. I?m certain Brits would want the world to know that they have more than soccer players. As such, there may be ?famous? Canadians who are not famous worldwide like Celine Dion but are in their own country and all Canadians would say are true symbols of the accomplishments, values, goals etc. of Canadians. Hence, Marilyn Bell the 1950?s swimmer is important. Figure skater Barbara Ann Scott is absolutely at the top. Elvis Stoijko & Kurt Browning were multiple world champions who all failed in the Olympics. Canadians are an unforgiving lot, too.

A famous list should not exclude curling fans, Schmirler would be there because she won the Olympic gold and of course sympathy for her young death. The music list is darn good and representative but, god forbid, Don Messer (number 1 TV show for years in Canada coast to coast) and Stompin? Tom Connors.) While these are not my cup of tea, at all, they were/are extremely popular and if not on a famous list a great many Canadians would say the list is not representative, is biased against real and pure Canadian music etc. Too, radio personality Peter Gzowski had an enormous following and is in fact a symbol of Canada. Yet, I never listened to a single one of his programs. In the writers category, Pierre Berton is the only truly Canadian author because he writes, in novel form, Canada?s history. While I have read only one of his books, if someone asked me to define a Canadian, it would be Pierre Berton because of his passion for the country and determination to teach Canadians about their great history. In a 2002 poll, more Canadians knew who was the first President of the United States than they did the PM of Canada.

Then, famous as representing Canada to the world, has to consider French Canadians. Singers like Gilles Vigneault were enormously popular in Quebec even though few in the rest of Canada knew or cared because of his politics that were part of some of his songs. I'm guessing that he is someone French Canadian would want the world to know about as famous.

Yes, that's true, it should also be about "representative" people. It will be clear (although maybe additional header text could be added to the list) that is a subjective list. It is also not a fixed list, and there can be debates, but I think it will work out.

By the way, the Famous French list is getting out of hand but I am certainly not qualified to edit it.....DW

If this approach works (which I hope), then it could be copied for the French and all other lists (don't think about the "famous Americans" yet...). For the French list, there's plenty of Français dans Wikipédia, so that shouldn't be a problem. Jeronimo

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Another suggestion, picked up from the (yet small) List of famous Italians: should we add the birth/deathyears in parentheses in the annotation? It may help to place a person in a period. Jeronimo

Definitely not. Hate to say it, but the kids today will bypass reading them if the "Olympic Gold Medalist" has a 1924 date.

Hmmm yes, but kids will also pass by "Politics" or "Literature". It's also useful to see that, f.e. most famous Dutch painters were from the 17th century.

I would include the dates. Why encourage the self-absorption that someone mentioned above. Showing dates also shows if we have considered the entire historical range. Eclecticology

In the Business section, I have doubts (although I put them there) about Mayer & Goldwyn. I think they both were born in Poland etc. and lived in Saint John, NB for their youth before making their name and fortune in the United States. It is a tough case to claim perhaps a 10-15 residency as Canadian property. I tend to use birth as an absolute, recognizing where he/she made the accomplishment. Case in point, AG Bell was not only born in Britain but had already studied voice transmission there before coming to Canada. He lived here, loved the place, and spent most of his life here, but it is legitimately debatable to claim him as Canadian. Wait till you see the arguments when someone does an American list. WW III !...DW

I think as long as we add this fact in the short description, it is OK. However, if there is a "genuine" Canadian showing up to "fight" for that spot, I think he should get preference.

I added Benito Mussolini to the Italian list. Some people don't like to talk about the bad. I admit to hating seeing Ben Johnson in a list of famous. But, I feel strongly the good and bad are part and parcel of who and what a nation is. ...DW

Yeah, Johnson's way more famous than Percy Williams and Donovan Bailey (who actually won the Olympic gold); Johnson forms an important "black page" in the history of sport concerning doping. Infamous is also famous... Jeronimo

In time I suspect that with a numerical limit Big Ben Johnson will be pushed off the list anyway, even with hockey players split off. Eclecticology

I'd like to nominate The Tragically Hip for the music section. Many Canadians consider The Hip to be the Canadian band. I'm going to take some time out from my documentation overhaul to write the article, anyway. --Stephen Gilbert 15:45 Oct 16, 2002 (UTC)

Bringing up Percy Williams is a good point. I had completely forgotten him but he is absolutely deserving of the list. If I were Jamaican, I'd claim Donovan Bailey. By the way, I prefer the dates on the list but my idea is to get people to read everyone and learn.

I know zip about The Tragically Hip, but would that not open the door to (loyal) debate over "Rush", "The Guess Who", "Barenaked Ladies". etc.? I was going to suggest adding the Guess Who because they are responsible for numerous Canadians to follow and # 1 hits in the USA. "American Woman", to me is a classic.

Possibly. However, the Hip's songs are filled with Canadian symbolism (and geography), far beyond the music of the bands you mentioned. The Guess Who are more famous outside of Canada, but if the goal here is to include people who define Canadian culture, I would include the Hip over them. --Stephen Gilbert 16:26 Oct 16, 2002 (UTC)

I'd sell my soul to the devil to delete Pamela Anderson.

I agree she's maybe not something to be proud of, but she scores well over 300,000 hits on Google, and she is definitely known all over the world. Jeronimo

I feel the same way about Bryan Adams and Celine Dion... --Stephen Gilbert

You've sold me on the "Hip". Guess I'll have to listen to one of their songs. Are they still alive? I have no doubt that Pamela Anderson is really an American computer whiz born in Silicon Valley....DW

Yes, they're still playing. They have a new album coming out soon. -- Stephen Gilbert 13:55 Oct 17, 2002 (UTC)

Think in Music, Guy Lombardo has to be there. Also would question switching Gilles Villeneuve for son, Jacques. Gilles is most famous for dying, but Jacques won the Indy 500 and the F1 title in his first year.

Was doubting about that, but Gilles Villeneuve is still considered a hero by many Formula One fans around the globe. It's like with Niki Lauda: everybody knows him (after his terrible accident), while fewer people will still know Jackie Stewart[?] or Nelson Piquet (globally). I think he's more famous than his son, even though Jacques was more successful. Jeronimo

Someone added Leonard Cohen to the musician list. Delete either music or writer.

That was me, since I know him primarily as a musician. What is he best known for? Jeronimo

If Cohen is to have any lasting fame it will be as a poet. I first heard of him when his Flowers for Hilter was his most popular work, and before he started to "sing". Only Emile Benoit has a worse singing voice. But even Cohen's songs tend to be poetry with a tune stuck on as an afterthought. His impact is linked with that of the other well known Montreal Jews such as Layton and Richler, and it remains to be seen which will have lasting fame. Eclecticology

Stephen Gilbert: You hit the nail on the head: telling the world what defines Canadian culture should be the basis for all choices....DW

I really can't disagree with the above statement more. Its entirely parochial. If you're famous, and you're Canadian, you're a famous Canadian. Full stop, underline twice. -- GWO

Someone has (before and now) included The Band. Is this not more fandom that fame? And, does backing up Dylan define Canadian culture? I don't know much in this area so others who do, please step in...DW

I have The Band on my CD-drive now as I write. They did have some Canadian themes (e.g. Acadian Driftwood). Backing up Dylan's apostasy may have contributed to their becoming known, but it's not the most important event in their career. Still I don't think that will remain in the top 10. Eclecticology

Firstly, if you think backing Dylan is the Band's claim to fame, can I recommend Greil Marcus' "Mystery Train" to you. Class book, and deals with their own musical legacy with the respect it deserves. (check out any online reviews of "Big Pink" or "The Band", for further evidence). Secondly, to be famous Canadians, there is no need for to define, or even reflect, Canadian Culture. Leonard Cohen's work does not strike me as "Canadian", his Jewish heritage shines through much more strongly. The Band's view of the US and US-Americana is much strengthened however, by their principal songwriter being an outsider. And they've sold more albums than the Tragically Hip, The Barenaked Ladies and Spirit of The West put together. In terms of rock and roll, the Band are absolutely one of the 10 most important and influential (mainly) Canadian bands of the last 40 years. -- GWO

Cohen's Jewishness has always suffused his work, and has even continued into his Buddhism, but it is the more particular Montreal Jewishness exemplified in the 1975 movie Lies My Father Told Me[?], and that's very Canadian. Eclecticology

Response from GW: (This insertion stuff losesme). I know nothing of The Band so will rely on others. However, in talking about "defining culture," it includes telling the world that a Canadian made an impact by espousing certain ideals, that because he is famous today, are in fact a reflection of Canadian ideals. Other Canadians in the past have espoused certain beliefs and after a few media clips disappeared from the collective minds of Canadian society. Obviously, as evidenced by this page, Leonard Cohen and others did not. Even Paul Anka exemplies Canadian culture because Canadians bought into and participated with what was going on south of the border and not elsewhere. (As if they had little choice.)...DW

Jeronimo- Re: F1 - I still think Jimmy Clark (put him in Scotland earlier) and Stirling Moss, are true notables over many others yet are all but forgotten by the current generation. But, I knew Gilles V. personally in Berthier and he was a great hero then, being the first in Canada, but in terms of racing success, Jacques is. In truth Jacques is more Swiss than Canuck....DW

I'd be happy with both choices, it's just that I personally prefer Gilles, as he was more of an icon than Jacques. Jeronimo

How about title: Art to ART & CULTURE, then someone could add a classical music composer, ballet star etc.

That seems OK, though the composer should be at music, of course. Furthermore, we could extend Science to Science and Technology. Jeronimo

A better way to divide "Art" would be between the plastic arts (painting, sculpture etc.) and performing arts (music, theatre, dance etc.). "Culture" is as problematic in its definition as "fame"; I would prefer not going there.

Stephen Gilbert: Why not ask a few S.Koreans to name 5 famous Canadians and see who comes up?

Heh. It be a miracle if any South Korean could name one famous Canadian. If you're not from Asia or the US, you're not on the radar here. Exceptions are made for pop stars and soccer players. Quick, name five famous Koreans... -- Stephen Gilbert

I just glanced at the original list and added Gould. Without him, I think most in the "art" community as well as many others, would see this list as less than realistic....DW

I've been looking at names on other famous lists. My ignorance is amazing!...DW

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Just going through my knowledge of Canadians, I remembered Alanis Morrissette. I'd certainly rank her over Shania Twain, maybe even over Joni Mitchell. Jeronimo

What! 3 album wonder Morrissette over the 30 year career of Joni Mitchell? Are you kidding? This is madness, absolute madness... -- GWO.

Alanis over Joni Mitchell?! Are you looking for another edit war? :) -- Stephen Gilbert

I've never listened to her, but didn't one of Morrissette's albums sell over 35 million copies. And, delete her if you like, but Shania has one great butt....DW

I'd imagine Joni's sold more records still, given a 30 year headstart. And Joni is still loved and admired after all these years. I can't imagine people still playing "Jagged Little Pill" (which is an excellent record) in 2025 -- GWO

It is indeed interesting to note the category with the least blue!...DW

By the way, GWO et al, where does Robbie Robertson fit into this?...DW

He was in "The Band"; he just became an MIA of the edit wars. Eclecticology

I killed Robbie, because it didn't seem worthwhile having The Band in as individuals when their solo efforts are uniformly unremarkable (Levon Helm did a good turn in the movie "Coal Miner's Daughter", but he's not Canadian, so the point is moot. (I'm not making a case for the The Band in terms of name recognisability, but in terms of influence and importance. "Robbie Robertson," critic Dave Marsh[?] once noted, "is not even a household name in his own household") -- GWO

GWO, I was talking about famousness. I agree that this may be biased because Alanis Morrissette is more recent "hit list" material. DW, you can make a list of Famous Canadian butts[?] ;-) Jeronimo

I guess that its a question of criteria. Do we want the Canadian who shifted a load of product recently, or those of lasting importance? Let me note that Mitchell and The Band both have multiple entries Julian White's compilation of the most favourably reviewed albums of the 20th century. (http://www.rocklist.net/20century.htm) You might win the "sales" argument, but the critical consensus is with me. (Which is not to criticise Alanis, who I like, and "Jagged Little Pill" does OK in some of the polls on that site) -- GWO

Before posting a name to any part of the list maybe we should ask ourselves this: Does it define the identity of Canada or does it define the person making the choice?

Why must a famous Canadian define the identity of Canada. Michael J. Fox is famous and Canadian, but his body of work does reflect his origin in any notable way. Are we to exclude him for being insufficiently Canadian. Did Gretzky play Hockey in a way that reflects Canadian identity? How about Bobby Orr, because its hard to imagine to more contrasting styles. Canadian is not an attitude, or a state of mind. It is a country of origin. -- GWO

Correct me if I'm wrong because I hate to throw water on your parade GWO. But, Julian White's compilation appears to me to be exactly that: HIS list of reviews of albums he chose to gather info on.

No, its not. Its (literally) a compilation of the hundreds of polls that have appeared in the music press (http://www.rocklist.net/list4) over the last 20 years. -- GWO

And, it covers a narrowly defined area of music. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was not one Polka album or Irish Fiddle Music on the list.

No, but I did qualify my comments with "in rock and roll". Its madness to compare Glenn Gould to Shania Twain, whatever criteria you chose to use. All my comments should be taken as "within that commonly defined as pop music (rock, country, pop, soul, basically)". You can use my record collection to guage those areas on which I consider myself knowledgeable (http://www.geocities.com/drgazowen/records.txt) (That list is a little out of date now, and covers only vinyl, not CDs. -- GWO

That is not a scientific survey or a barometer of popularity, quality or anything else.

No, its a summation of those that respected critics believe to be the greatest. I think thats a pretty good criteria -- GWO

I can post a selective list of "favourable reviews" of anything and saying from "around the world" is deliberately misleading. Note, yesterday Iraq had an election and their compilation of the vote showed 100% turnout and a 100% vote in favor of their beloved leader. I don't think White's compilation can be called a critical consensus.

I think thats exactly what it can be called. -- GWO

I could compile a negative review list from around the world and leave out negatives on certain genres or personal favourites....DW

You could, but your methodology would be biased. White's is not. He doesn't have an ax to grind, he's just a harmless trainspotter like myself. -- GWO

I think most Canadians would not rank The Band ahead of Gordon Lightfoot or Stan Rogers.

This is not a list of Canadians beloved in Canada, it is a list of famous Canadians. When The Band played their last concert, Bob Dylan, Van Morrison, Joni Mitchell, Emmylou Harris, Neil Diamond, Neil Young, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Eric Clapton, Dr John and Muddy Waters showed up to say goodbye, and the whole thing was filmed by Martin Scorcese. (A film which, 25 years later, has enough fans to warrant its recent release on DVD). I don't think those people would've shown up for Gordon Lightfoot -- GWO

And, although I hate to say it, the popularity of Don Messer, and his type of music (fiddle) is in fact symbolic (groan) of this country....DW

This is not a list of Canadians symbolic of Canada. It is a list of famous Canadians -- GWO

And, Don Messer was one of the most famous of all Canadian musicians. No other person had the number one TV show for what ? a dozen years. This guy outdrew Hockey Night In Canada!...DW

GWO: I looked at your list awhile ago and, I apologize if I missed it, but you don't have an Orbison album.

I don't. Its an oversight. I've got a certain amount of his singles on compilations (In Dreams, Pretty Woman, Crying, a few others. I absolutely adore "It's Over"). I'm not a massive fan, but I've got an awful lot of records by people I like an awful lot less -- GWO

Roy Orbison was born in the back of a bus in Windsor, ON as his mother was going home. No doubt about it. I have Orbison original albums from day 1.

I'm having difficulty tracking doen the story or Roy Orbison's Canadian birth. Most places show it as Vernon, Texas, but some have Wink, Texas. Even if that story can be verified, it seems that such an accident of birth is not enough to accept him as a famous Canadian. Similarly no one would seriously consider the Dutch princesses born in Ottawa during WW2 to be Canadians.

Ditto. Our page, which DW has revised extensively says "Vernon, Texas", as do all my reference books, so I assumed it was a joke... -- GWO

Based on that, my totally unbiased opinion is that you have been forced to live in the light for far too long! By the way, I do note you are the logical one to write the bio for Jackson Browne....DW

I don t think The Band is famous at all in Canada except amongst a very limited number of the purists. Example, CBC did their thing (modeled after Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous) and it was focused on Robbie Robertson with The Band limited to being a part of his brilliance. I ain t no expert but, do a survey on Yonge Street and I think you will find very few even know The Band (bad choice if you want to be remembered) and less who know their music.

Well, thats as may, and its their loss. Canoe.ca (http://www.canoe.ca/JamMusicPopEncycloPagesB/band) have an extensive article, noting that: "The Band were the first Canadian act nominated into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame". That must count for something... -- GWO

The musicians list is now double what Jeronimo felt was appropriate. This is a working page so if you post a name justify it otherwise they will not be considered. Who the hell is Mary Travers? Guess I'd better go to Google!...DW

See http://www.chansonduquebec.com/bio/bolduc.htm

Suggestion: It's easy to post a name. How about doing a bio and then posting it. The quality of your bio will allow everyone to assess all potential candidates. I don't think others should have to research to see if YOU are right. It is also essential to balance all genres. Canada is certainly not all rock etc. Country, etc. must be represented relative to what Canadians listen to...DW

The famous will survive the absence of a quick rough bio. With most that I'm entering now I'm at least putting in a line or two saying why they should be considered. Eclecticology

I just did an info bio on Hank Snow by popping in bits from Google. It took 47 seconds....DW

I'm always concerned that if I took that approach, I could be violating somebody's copyright. Eclecticology

Good idea, I'll knock up quick pen portraits of The Band, Joni Mitchell, Neil Young and Bill Reid... oh, hang about, someone already did ... oh, wait, it was me -- GWO

I'm still waiting for Jackson Browne!

Using information from another source is not a copyright violation. Even in reference to specific facts. Using it in direct copy does violate their copyright presentation but not the information when it is all public knowledge....DW (Dates and places of birth/death, information on someone's life which is almost alaways gathered from government or public records and from that persons's vocalising events to many sources, their albums etc., are all information placed in the public domain over a lifetime. Worded differently by multiple authors is their own unique copyright presentation for design, format, etc. However, you would be hard-pressed to ever find any information on anyone or anything that is in fact copyright protected material. That Elvis was born in Tupelo, recorded at Sun, sold a zillion records, said this or that, and ate pb and banana sandwiches, is all public domain stuff repeated by numerous parties over and over. If you trust its accuracy for Wikipedia, copying known facts and rewording it in your own style for presentation into Wikipedia is perfectly legal. The U.S. Courts have ruled on that and its variations so often that no one even contests it anymore.

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It indeed looks like we have a little too listed in some of the sections, and too few in some other. We'll have to get those cleaned up and filled in. I'll see what needs to be done. Jeronimo

Regarding sports, I combined Gilles and Jacques Villeneuve into a single entry (we can do a little cheating). However, we have to "lose" two of the names. I think it is fair to have

• three ice hockey players - we'll have to make sure these are the most famous ones (now we have Gretzky, Orr and Richard)
• one curler - it's a big sport in Canada, but we need a bio
• one figure skater - big sport as well
• the Villeneuves are very famous, F1 is a big sport

Of the remaining, I must say I have never heard of them, except for the two Olympic 100 m champions (I wrote both bios, so I should know them...). Therefore, I cannot judge which of these should go. If one of the two sprinters is to leave, it would be Ben Johnson. He's born in Jamaica (but always competed for Canada), but he lost his titles, Williams didn't. Also, Williams is from the 1920s/1930s, giving a better spread in time. If we drop Johnson, one more's to leave. Who? Jeronimo

There's no reason to be in a big hurry to trim the list to 10. I think we are still at the nomination stage. (Personally, in the literature list, I would see only Montgomery surviving in the top 10.) That's why I suggested the double size limit (20) for the temp page. We should avoid individually removing anybody from each list unless it has reached 20. After that it could be if you put one on (with justification shown) you take one off (whom you think to not have a chance for the top ten). Perhaps after a couple of months when the top 20 list seems reasonably stable, some kind of weighted voting system could be applied. This could be done separately for each topical list.

In sports I still see some merit to showing the hockey players in a separate list, but I can live with a combined list if that's the consensus.

On some of the more specific changes (in sports) I agree with cheating on the Villeneuves, and dumping one-goal-wonder Paul Henderson but would for now have kept Gordie Howe. I would consider adding old-time hockey players George Hainsworth, Cy Deneny and Cyclone Taylor plus one contemporary player, Mario Lemieux. I would also put Donovan Bailey ahead of Ben Johnson. Eclecticology

Hockey: I removed Henderson but only kept Richard instead of Howe because of importance of recognizing French Canadians. No question, Percy williams is NO. 1 - two Golds in the 100 & 200 is an incredible accomplishment. "(Personally, in the literature list, I would see only Montgomery surviving in the top 10.)" I think its a pretty good Lit list as is. The Toronto crowd won't like the Arthur Hailey listing because they look down on anything that doesn't fit their neat little mold or makes a pile of money in the USA. ....DW

I'll start adding important people to the Lit list. Hailey would only be my second choice off the list; Coupland is my clear first vote to go. Eclecticology

Artist Paul Kane: I think maybe the record high price paid for his painting had more to do with a multi-billionaire Canadian collector (Ken Thomson) determined not to let this painting be another to leave the country after the Royal Ontario Museum didn't have the resources to buy it rather than anything to do with its (the artist) actual value?....DW

I was aware of Paul Kane long before that sale. I would never use the selling price for a painting as a criterion to determine the fame of an artist. Eclecticology

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Suggestions:

• As performing arts is now a category, let's join it with the tv, movie and entertainment stars. That also makes it easier to put in actors outside movies (not that we have any, but we'd like to have these categories for other countries as well).
• The humanitarians should go with the "Other" category, I guess. It is very difficult to define (Terry Fox a humanitarian?), and we'll likely never get 10 of them.

Jeronimo

But then, doesn't having just two people in one category tell the world what kind of nation we are or, perhaps what the media portrays as our values?...DW

I'm sure that we'll find more as we go along. Eclecticology

Time to put this to bed. In the next day or two, I will.....DW