Talk:List of Hungarian rulers

Oy. Can somebody fix this format? I don't have the time to do it right now. -- Zoe

Is there any reason to keep presidents (post 19th sentury) in messed-up non-tabular format? Can I fix them? --grin 09:45 26 May 2003 (UTC)

---

I have just finished the table of all rulers before 1918 but still need the original poster of the untabluated format to provide some in depth information on the following, which Google search didn't provide any relevant idea:

• Vatha pagan rising 1046-1047 ? (please explain)
  • Vata or Vatha, leader of Borsod, the leader of the revolt against christian leadership in 1046. He cut his hair the pagan way (only 3 horsetail left hanging) and with a big army started to hail the pagan gods and ways of religion. He was expecting prince András and Levente back from Russia, and fighted for them and the pagan beliefs of the Elders. After the capture of Péter (?) and the death of Levente he was pushed away by King András, and he was living in the background with his pagan followers without being harmed. -- The Great Encyclopedia of Pallas (now in public domain) -- grin 09:22 23 May 2003 (UTC)

(original article:) v. Vatha, több magyar úr és főpap neve. - 1. Vata - alkalmasint borsodvármegyei - főember, 1046. a Péter király s a kereszténység ellen kitört forradalomnak egyik vezére, ki Abaújvár vidékén már pogánymódra leborotvált, csak három csimbókban meghagyott hajjal, nagy fölkelő sereggel, a magyarok istenének régi módra áldozva várta az Oroszországból visszatérő András és Levente herceget. Kijelentette, hogy csak ugy harcol értök, ha visszatérhetnek őseik hitére, ha elkergethetik, vagy meg is ölhetik a püspököket és a papokat, s leronthatják a templomokat. Péter elfogatása és a pogányságra visszatért Levente halála után András király rövid idő alatt helyre állította a keresztény egyházat és társadalmat. Vatát egészen mellőzte, ha talán tűrte is, hogy Borsodban, hol még ma is áll Vatta helység, Bélháromkút vidékén, az Áldozó- és Hamukő táján pogánymódra éljen a hozzá ragaszkodó töredékkel. - 2. Vata fia, János, l. János. - 3. Vata, 1073-ban a bihari (váradi) püspökkel együtt Géza herceg követe volt, kit azonban Salamon király az ő követei Vid és Ernye elfogatásának hirére börtönbe vetett; csakhamar azonban szabadon bocsátotta őt s 1073 novemberében fegyverszünetre lépett Gézával. - 4. Vata, talán a Miskolc-nemzetségből, tehát az egykori pogány vezérek sarjadéka, 1186-89. váradi püspök volt. Ő várad első ismert választott püspöke.

• Emeric Tokolli[?]'s role as a ruler? Is he a prince, king or any sort of prominent figure?
  • Thököli Imre was the counselor of ruling prince Apafi Mihály, elected as King of Hungary in 1682 by Ibrahim Pasha, elected in 1690 as ruling prince of transylvania (Erdélyi Fejedelem). I'm not sure about the official translation of fejedelem, means a monarch, one who is the king of a smaller territory than a whole country. I found xlation ruling prince which I like. --grin 09:22 23 May 2003 (UTC)

Also all links of Ladislas are changed to Ladislaus since

• the 1911 EB uses the later spelling but the current EB uses the fomer.
• first ten Google search results of the later spelling (Ladislaus of Hungary) are all pages of King Ladislaus of Hungary, some of which are encyclopedic entries; whereas the former spelling only yields some links to genealogical tables and some relevant data to Hungarian kings.

the las links will be redirected to laus -- kt2

Hungarians refer them as Ladislaus. --grin

Hungarians actually refer to them as "Laszlo", I believe. Furthermore, that is irrelevant, given the conventions employed for other rulers on Wikipedia. Germans refer to Holy Roman Emperor Frederick III as Friedrich III. The French call their King Henry IV Henri IV. The spanish call Philip II Felipe II. The Danes call their Kings Frederick Frederik. But none of these make it onto Wikipedia because we, for whatever reason, have chosen to go with anglicised names of rulers, except when the ruler is never called that in English (e.g. Juan Carlos, Carol I of Romania, etc.) So, the proper question is what these rulers are referred to in English. john 17:46 23 May 2003 (UTC)

Well depends, I'd call all of them "László", but "las" sounds slavic while neither the persons in question nor the country is slavic; OTOH -laus sounds of german origins. Apart from this, I'm inserting the Hungarian names where I can to help those who search for the names with the original spelling, but I don't change the english links, so the articles are titled English. This way hardcore wikipedians stay happy while users are happy because they are able to find the informations they're looking for! :-)

I still don't know what to do with links completely misspelled - I can't tell whether English are so "stupid" to call Thököly "Tokolli" or the original author of the article didn't have a clue. I'm not that familiar with English... --grin 11:18 25 May 2003 (UTC)

As far as naming conventions go, I generally am dubious about the "all names Anglicised, except for those that aren't". I think it would be better to just name them all in the native language, with redirects from the anglicised names. But that's not the convention that was arrived at, so I figure I may as well let it be. A native language convention would also be confusing for some historical figures - Emperor Charles V, for instance. He would have called himself Charles, as French was his native language. He was king of Spain as "Carlos" and Emperor as "Karl". So, in this instance, the English name seems appropriate. As for "Tokolli", I'm not sure about that specific case, but I've definitely seen Hungarian names written in that manner in older English histories... john 18:58 25 May 2003 (UTC)

I try to list all kinds of spelling at least once on a page, making it possible to websearch for the name. In your Charles case I'd list Charles (Carlos [spain], Karl [german]) (naturally a bit more detailed). For example I listed the alternative spelling Szapolyai [hungarian] next to Zápolya [transylvanian?] once. (Well it should probably be listed at every instance but I didn't have time to do it.) This way if someone looks hor the hungarian spelling he can find the page. (I noticed that they convinced you about the names when you started wikipedia. :-)) ) --grin 08:54 26 May 2003 (UTC)

As I said, I'm not fully convinced of the names. There is something to be said for using the forms most frequently used in English. "Philip II of Spain" is found far more commonly than "Felipe II of Spain", and so forth. It's much easier, though, for languages I don't know, like Spanish. I have a great deal of trouble having to say "King Philip of France" or "King Henry of France", or, especially "King Francis of France", and even with my limited German "Frederick William of Prussia" and "Louis I of Bavaria" start to chafe...so, in conclusion, I'm ambivalent. I do think that if a standard is agreed to, it ought to be followed. I agree that all forms of the name should be mentioned at least once, although, I think, not more than once, as it can become confusing. I'm not sure about "Zapolya". I do know that every English source I've ever seen calls it "Zapolya" or "Zápolya"... john 09:06 26 May 2003 (UTC)

I'm sure it's a great advantage for me that I read history in Hungarian. I tried to check all links to Hungary and add native names where appropriate. Sometimes it's pretty hard to know from the English name who's that and I have to check the birth/death dates to be sure. But Wikipedia should serve international value so I accept the common form (english).

One of my problems - not really related - is opening new articles, because I cannot guess the English "misspelling" of some names. These are those you've dreamed about: national spellings with english redirects to them. :-) (After someone native English speaker creates them, that's it.) --grin 09:45 26 May 2003 (UTC)