Cunctator and others
I edited out a lot of the older talk - we've achieved something a lot nearer a consensus now, so there doesn't seem to be the need for the raging debates of earlier. Anyone who wants to read it can press "View other revisions". - ManningBartlett
LDC - I really like the new article. I have only made one change - I altered "misconceptions" to philosophical foundations of the scientific method. I really like the way you have re-written the axiomatic viewpoint and I think it is fine as it is. I would also really like you to write an equivalent section explaining the viewpoint that "axioms are not necessary" - this would give the balance that the article needs. I also think that the "non-axiomatic" viewpoint should go first. -- MB
As far as verbs or adjectives - I like the verbs. As long as the surrounding language is consistent then it is fine. Using both verbs and adjectives seems redundant. -- MB
Some useful references from an earlier discussion:
http://teacher.nsrl.rochester.edu/phy_labs/AppendixE/AppendixE
http://biology.clc.uc.edu/courses/bio104/sci_meth.htm
http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node6#SECTION02121000000000000000
http://pc65.frontier.osrhe.edu/hs/science/hsimeth.htm
I removed this right after Cunctator added it:
This adds no information that wasn't already there, and it gives the mistaken impression that there is some official consensus about the exact steps; that's just not true. Descriptions even disagree on the number of steps, or that there is any specific rigorous procedure at all; giving them official-sounding names just encourages people to memorize things and encourage teachers to put things on tests that won't help anyone understand the real concept. --LDC
How about a discussion on experimental error and its effect? What constitutes random error and what is a contradiction that warrants further investigation? Consider, for instance, the scientist who exposed a gold foil to alpha particle bombardment (I'm not sure if he knew that alpha radiation was due to helium nuclei) and expected all of the radiation to go through. Indeed most, did, but a very small amount bounced back. From what I've heard, the amount was so small that it could have been explained away as experimental error. The scientist didn't ignore it, however, because to him it was the equivalent of, "firing a sixteen inch shell at a sheet of tissue paper and having it bounce back at you," (not sure if the quote was his). Rutherford reasoned that there must be something incredibly small and solid that the radiation was bouncing off of. Thus the nuclear model of the atom was born and the plum pudding model was refuted.
Perhaps this deserves to be in some other article about data analysis, but it does warrant mentioning somewhere.
Also, it was Earnest Rutherford, right? --BlackGriffen
Added reference to Thomas Kuhn. Personally I think he has a much more accurate description of what scientists do. -- Chenyu
I'm not convinced that Kuhn's ideas are contrary to the scientific method. But I'll let LDC argue that one, if he so chooses. --Stephen Gilbert
The mention of Kuhn seems fine to me. It states something that he believes, and that a lot of people take seriously (though I don't happen to be one of them). While I was here, I also removed the last occurrences of "an hypothesis...". --LDC
I think I understand what this sentence is trying to say, but it seems kinda clumsily worded. --Robert Merkel
Damn double negative, could you simplify this sentence ? --Taw
Reason - it's two steps removed from the article. THe preceding sentence introduces how Kuhn said that sociological mechanisms are absent from the SM as traditionally presented. OK, that is relevant. This cut sentence then goes on to discuss the validity and significance of sociological mechanisms within science as a whole. I felt the sentence confuses the article and goes off on a tangent too unrelated to the main topic. - MMGB
The lengthy article falsifiable seems to imply that someone thinks it is technical term in use in scientific circles. Perhaps the phrases using the term could be rewritten using other terms such as validate, verify, etc. while leaving the link to falsifiable for readers interested in more detail. To me, falsifiable implies that it is possible to successfully lie about the results ... clearly not the intended concept which I assume to be more along the lines of "possible to validate or invalidate via known published methods". - user:Mirwin
I prefer to proceed with the utmost caution through this article. To me there is a distinction between the concepts of scientific method as a topic of debate among philosophers, and scientific method as a practical tool-kit for the study and evaluation of a theory on any subject. The philosophers like this term "falsifiable", and with a little effort I like to believe that I can grasp what that doctrine denotes. Nevertheless, I distinguish between denotations which follow directly from a definition, and connotations which depend as much upon the readers experience with the word. Please believe me when I say that the word "falsifiable" carries a lot of uncontrollable baggage in the mind of the reader. Although the philosophers suggest that a hypothesis is in valid if it is not falsifiable, those who object to the practices of parapsychology seem to suggest exactly the opposite.
[moved from subject page]
Some other things that belong in here:
The scientific method is often confused with technology. Technology is an application of science. While science has proven its usefulness through application to develop technology, from semiconductors to putting a man on the moon, the scientific method in itself is just a simple and robust technique for developing understanding.
The scientific method never proves anything. It is simply a technique for rejecting hypotheses which are not useful.
It's easy to spot things that aren't science. They usually have science in their name.
* Christian Science * Scientology * Computer Science (which is an art, not a science)
Removed:
I removed this because all mathematics is "purely theoretical", so I don't see what the particular concern about applying this is any more than making predictions using Newtonian physics. --Robert Merkel 06:41 Oct 10, 2002 (UTC)
Why does this extremely accurate synopsis keep getting deleted?
Why is there all this anti-Science bias? Why are a tiny number of radical extremists given equal weight to mainstream views? In an NPOV article, we are bound to note when two viewpoints both seem to have equal support, or when one viewpoint is mainstream, and the other viewpoint is a radical view held by a tiny minority. In this case the article isn't evem close to NPOV. It gives equal weight to a tiny number of radicals, and it doesn't even allow the reader to know who holds such views. The test I added puts the information in perspective, by allowing readers to know what groups put forth the radical views. Why is this critical information continually deleted? Why the vehemently anti-science viewpoint? RK
There is no "widespread consensus" to misunderstand the scientific method to way RK does. Where does the scientific method make this claim to exclusivity?
You don't avoid religious and cultural bias by dragging in Marxism and fundamentalism as straw men to be disproved.
"Anti-Science bias", "radical extremists": what is RK trying to accomplish with these rhetorical questions?
RK seems to want to reduce NPOV to some kind of popularity contest. Who are the radicals? Popper? Kuhn? This is hotly debated stuff. It's important to keep in mind that this article is about the scientific method itself. It is not about any specific network of facts to which it may be applied. It is neither about a specific science or specific pseudoscience.
The truth in any specific circumstance has nothing to do with who the proponents of a particular POV may be. Reference to authority is a logical fallacy. Eclecticology 02:54 Dec 16, 2002 (UTC)
Eclecticology writes "If a particular hypothesis diverges from mainstream thought the burden of proof that must be borne by its proponents is a much heavier one. Scientific method does give these ideas the opportunity to be proven; that's a question of open mindedness. I prefer to see what science says rather than what scientist say. If you make a claim purporting to represent scientists, I want at least that some opportunity to check the facts is available. Ec."
The shorter current version ("Other viewpoints hold & etc.) is better. By avoiding the marginalising term "fringe groups" and the slightly strident tone of the longer version, it carries more weight, and being easier to read, is a better argument for the scientific method. Sometimes simple is best. Tannin 15:28 Dec 16, 2002 (UTC)
--- This article needs more work dont ya think? "In recent years..." Kuhn published that seminal work 40 odd years ago. There is a huge gap between what scientists think they are doing and what they are actually doing. Everytime philosophers understand things it takes a while for that knowledge to diffuse especially if one has to wait for the entrenched to die off. Also it does seem to me that the scientific method is " a collection of techniques" if we compare the differing methods of different disciplines. Two16 05:28 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)
--- There is so much that has be done on the scientific method since Kuhn that it staggers the mind to read this article. The scientific method is done no justice by this article. Even when sceintists use the scientific method they can end up with entirely differing world veiws (ex.Bohr and Einstein and their respective camps). Science is not a monolith and it should never be accorded the same status as a dogmatic religon. When clear logical thinking shows the limitations of a world veiw, a scientific mind adjusts to accommodate. This article starts off on a wrong foot and does not get any better (could it be because the source refernces of the external links are so dated - 50s 60s and mass market popular science from the 90s). The instruction I received in junior high was substantially better at presenting a simplified scientific method for childern. Any truth is better than make believe.64.229.15.189[?] 16:21 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)
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