Talk:Rudjer Josip Boscovich

Boscovich was considered to be Italian at the time - there was no mention of his Croatian origin up until 20th century. He worked in Italy, spoke Italian, lectured in Italian, died in Italy. He is of mixed origin, and Italians consider him their own. So do not erase this repeatedly, it is not only inaccurate but extremely rude! User:18.252.2.32[?]

Would this be a fair compromise: to call him "Croatian-born"? That way it would be clear that it was only a reference to his birth, and not necessarily his ethnicity. Then you can add the facts that he worked in Italy, spoke Italian, lectured in Italian, and died in Italy, and everyone would be clear about the matter. :) By the way, my browser is now displaying the Croatian version of his name with "<caron>" in the middle, which isn't right at all...! -- Oliver Pereira 03:11 Nov 28, 2002 (UTC)

He was born in Ragusa, or Dubrovnik, which was independet city at the time. It would not be accurate, Croatia didnt exist at the time. Compromise would be to erase Italian-Croatian and leave just the later statements which detail his birth (this I tried but was reverted; it is also what has been done in current edition of Britannica, as you can easily check on the web!) User:18.252.2.32[?]

Just a comment, but what the heck is "Bos<caron>koviæ"? A formatting error? --Dante Alighieri

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My opinion. I know him just as Croat. I had never heard he was considered Italian. It does not matter that Croatia at that time didn't exist. Nationality has nothing to do with historical political or state development of one area. When I was in Dubrovnik, years ago, I saw his birth street. He is also considered in some places as naturalized French, English or Italian. He wrote mainly in Latin, as was custum those days. I can't confirm he lectured in Italian, but I know he wrote letters to his sister Anica and to his brothers Baro and Božo in his native Croatian. For shure he knew Italian because he had to. But it is also known that he appreciated brother's opinions more than opinions of leading European scientists of that period. I really do not want to be rude if I delete what is not accurate. I am not Croat but I respect all nationality. I can say the same thing with, for example, Herman Potočnik, who was considered Austrian, but he was in fact Slovene and Herman of Carinthia who was also considered as Croat, but he was also Slovene. I was born in former Yugoslavia, so I am not Yugoslav, but Slovene and so on. The same thing is with Josip Broz Tito. His father was Croat and his mother was Slovene, so Slovenes never considerd him as Slovene, because he was Croat. Dante I've changed "Bos<caron>koviæ" to unicode form "Bošković" and I hope it is all right now. I guess it is another thing if someone retract his nationality. I respect this man so you should too. I guess he was proud he came from Dubrovnik, so let it be in that way. Best regards. --XJamRastafire 23:54 Dec 3, 2002 (UTC)

Probably the best thing is just to drop the claim from the opening sentence, as it is later said who were his parents. ---Johans

XJR, I agree that nationality has nothing to do with the state, but you cannot say someone is 'Croatian born' if Croatia didn't exist at the time (thats what it means). Saying that he is Croatian born is differet thing from saying that he was a Croat. But as you insist on this line, even the Croatian nationality of his father can be disputed. He is as much Croatian as Archimedes was Italian. The most accurate description, that would not offend anyone, would be to say that he was a Dalmatian. Dalmatians are distinct from Panonic Croatians, it was only in this century that they started to consider themselves Croatians - Dalmatia has distinct history from the rest of Croatia, and Croatians and Dalmatians despised each other in this century as any two other Balkan groups (and quarrel sometimes even today) - similary Montenegrins and Serbs, who were once considered to be the same nationality now are two considered to be two distinct nationalities - these things change. Dalmatia was long claimed by Italy, as you probably know, and has mixed population and a substantial Italian minority, which was much greater in the past. I have cousins who are from Dubrovnik and who are of mixed origin, and they have had problems during wars in the last century because of that. Italians fought on the side of partisans together with other people in Dalmatia in WWII, even before 1943, and Istria and Zadar only become part of Croatia (Yugoslavia at the time) after 1945. Cities on Adriatic coast at that time, like Venice and Ragusa, were all independent, akin of cities in ancient Greece, and had a lot of similarities - Italy didn't unite until the end of XIX century, as you probably know.

Also, I don't like your argument that mother's nationality does not count. Jews consider mother's nationality more important than father's. You are a Slovene and you know full well that a lot of your Slovene friends would be Bosnians by that logic (with some even not knowing it) - which they would probably consider to be a great insult, at least as far as my understanding of how Slovenes respect all nationality goes. Also, I don't know if you disown Tito now, but twenty years ago he was not considered a Croat, but a Croat-Slovene. All people in former Yugoslavia know stories of Joza's childhood in Zagorje, his Slovene mother and grandfather - little children learned all about it in schools, as a part of curriculum and it was part of his personality cult that he was of mixed origin, in accordance with the brotherhood and unity wich was promoted at the time. His Croatian language was far from flawless, he had a heavy accent and everyone was aware that he was half Slovene. User:18.252.2.32[?]

As for Croats, their greatest tennis player, Wimbledon champion Goran Ivanisevic, is considered to be a Croat, despite the fact that his father is a Serb. His mother is Croatian, and that is enough, and Goran says sometimes that he is a Dalmatian because of his mixed origin, but more often just considers himself to be a Croat. His Croatian patriotism and nationalism is undisputed. User:18.252.2.32[?]

Yes, very interesting, indeed. I agree with all what have you written. And I still think that we can't simply drop ones nationality. So I still vote for Bošković to be of Croatian origin. I didn't mean that someone is Croatian if he was born in a state of Croatia, but if he was born as Croat irrespective where he was born. According to your claim all Croats born before 1991 won't be Croats at all. We can't consider Dalmatians as national independent form. They are Croats if their parents are Croats and they are Italians if their parents are. I own Bošković famous book Theoria Philosophiae Naturalis (Theory of Natural Philosophy) published 1763 in Venice. And here Bošković is considered to be a Croat. But I guess we won't get far argueing in this way. I just say we have to find a nationality for every person here in Wikipedia. I have written my arguments and I really do not want to impose my point of view to anybody. I didn't say that mother's nationality does not count. If Bošković is to be Italian because of his mother's line than it is all right for me. I just wrote what I know of his origins and that I found mostly all around he is considered to be Croatian. So I leave a final decision to all of you. Best regards. --XJamRastafire 21:30 Dec 8, 2002 (UTC)

Dante, your atitude is very interesting. Indeed, you know only those historical facts that suits you. Unfortunately, history is not science and it's not so dificult to hide some facts. If you claim that Croats and Dalmatians unified in 20th century, than you have to learn some history regarding age before Italian ocuppation of Eastern Adriatic cost. Don't allow that history split people - especially if it's not true. Greeting... User:193.1.159.133[?]

I don't believe you're talking to Dante. *sigh* If only everyone would sign their comments... -- Oliver P. 17:06 5 Jun 2003 (UTC)

You're correct. It was not Dante. Dante just have some problems with unicodes, which were latter corrected. User User:193.1.159.133[?] you've changed a link from Serbo-Croatian language to Croatian language. Please, see talk page at related pages of these 'two' languages. Bošković's name is the same in both ones. I can't comprehend why are you all so concerned with nationalisms and not with nationalities. --XJamRastafire 14:18 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)