Talk:Fluorine

Article changed over to new WikiProject Elements format by maveric149, DrBob and 152.1.193.xx

Information Sources

Some of the text in this entry was rewritten from Los Alamos National Laboratory - Fluorine (http://periodic.lanl.gov/elements/9). Additional text was taken directly from the Elements database 20001107 (via dict.org (http://www.dict.org)), Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) (via dict.org (http://www.dict.org)) and WordNet (r) 1.7 (via dict.org (http://www.dict.org)). Data for the table was obtained from the sources listed in Fluorine and WikiProject Elements but was reformatted and converted into SI units.

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Talk

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The "dangerous toxin" part is not at all appropriate. In a very real sense everything in the human body can be toxic in excess. The "dangerous" part for fluoride is in dispute due to the low concentrations used in dental health care products and in municipal drinking supplies. Therefore it is not at all appropriate to state, as fact, that it is a dangerous toxin. This is missleading. --mav

What is wrong with stating:

"The fluorine ion fluoride is used in dental health care products and as a controversial additive to some drinking water supplies."

Is it not used in dental health care products? Is it not a controversial additive to some drinking water supplies? --mav

Clutch, there is no reason to delete intros to compound articles here. Introducing all things about an element is provided as part of the framework of this WikiProject. --mav

I don't see a problem with the current version's "The fluorine ion fluoride is used in dental health care products and, controversially, as an additive to some drinking water supplies." Seems a good summary. -- Tarquin 23:42 Dec 8, 2002 (UTC)

It is not ethical to leave the article in a state that would lead people who don't bother to click the fluoride link into believing that fluoride is harmless to their health. --Clutch 00:05 Dec 9, 2002 (UTC)

What? The article mentions that fluorides are used used for rat poison and that its use in water supplies is controversial. Whether or not this low concentration use is in fact harmful is a matter of great controversy. --mav

The use of fluoride as a ratpoison is neither controversial, nor is it suitable for the lead paragraph of an article on fluorine. Likewise, neither is any quack medical use of fluoride appropriate for the lead paragraph on fluorine. --Clutch 00:40 Dec 9, 2002 (UTC)

It is a very major use of this element. And fluoride compounds, not the ion itself, is added to water supplies in order to get fluoride ion to where authorities think it should go. The "quack" statement isn't appropriate here since fluoridation is perscribed by respected government agencies and the majority opinion on its use is still favors the idea that its medicinal effects outweigh deleterious ones. The word "quack" is reserved for fringe thinking. --mav

Two people have so far stated that there is nothing wrong with the wording. Clutch's only response is to call his critics "quacks" and "people without conscience". This is hardly persuasive and only tends to discredit anything Clutch says. --mav

Clutch's lack of understanding of chemistry is showing as sodium fluoride is obviously a compound. --rmhermen, a chemist and one who has worked on flouride analysis for public water systems

Note, nowhere did I refer to sodium fluoride. --Clutch 01:16 Dec 9, 2002 (UTC)

Clutch, stop making personal attacks on Mav, and lying about him being a vandal. That's insane. Between your hateful remarks on Jews, your paraboid comments in regards to fluoride, and your egregiously paranoid and slanderous comments on all social workers, I am seriously beginning to wonder if you suffer from sort of organic problem. Seriously. You need to seriously think about whether your presence here is good for your mental health.

RK-the above reference to mental health was a personal attack.

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fluorine != the fluoride ion, Clutch.

fluorine is not the same as the fluoride ion! fluorine is the element, whilst the fluoride ion is what is most commonly used in toothpaste, in the form of compounds such as sodium fluoride. - Mark Ryan

Well from what I remember of Chemistry (and it's been quite awhile) ions don't always act the same as their corresponding elements. I think that's what the person meant? mav? anyone? --KQ

Actually, no, I can answer that myself. Chlorine is highly carcinogenic. Sodium Chloride (salt) is not. So Clutch might want to consider the fluorine/fluroide thing in the same light. --KQ

The ionized form is much more reactive. --mav

Not to mention completely different chemically! Chlorine is completely different to sodium chloride. Just because a compound contains atoms of a particular element, doesn't mean is has similar chemical properties! Compare sodium metal (highly reactive) and sodium chloride (table salt). Don't forget that you can't regularly get an ion on its own. A fluoride ion doesn't come on its own - it must be sodium fluoride, calcium flouride etc. - cations and anions - Mark Ryan

Um, that they would be different chemically was my point. :-) The chlorine/NaCl example was my counterexample to Clutch's belief. --KQ

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Stopping the edit war by temporarily protecting the page. All further discussion should be directed to the mailing list. --mav

Removed sentence:
The fluorine ion fluoride is used in dental health care products and, controversially, as an additive to some drinking water supplies.

Since Clutch has a problem with this sentence I have removed it for now in order to stop the edit war. I'm unprotecting the page now. --mav

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Fluoride is added to drinking water. So what? There is a known acceptable amount of fluoride which is healthy for protecting teeth against decay (god, I sound like a Colgate ad). Studies have shown that children brought up in cities where fluoride is added to tap water have better dental health than those children bought up on farms drinking rainwater. Sure, it's probably hamful to your health in large quantities, but that's the point. The concentrations in tap water are quite small. The addition of fluoride ions to tap water is neither controversial nor unpopular here in Australia. - Mark Ryan

The good citizenry of the city of Redding, California voted in the latest elections only a month ago to ban the additon of fluoride to the water of their city because it "hasn't been proven to work, and is a poison." In the 1950s, fluoride was controversial because it was said to be a Communist plot to poison good Americans. -- Zoe

Have you been to Redding? It's not exactly high IQ or science aware central. Sorry, I couldn't resist. --mav

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This edit war has made me curious. I've just done some reading on fluoride. Okay, maybe it could be dangerous, but it's not used as a rat poison. [1] (http://www.crha-health.ab.ca/pophlth/hp/fluoride/hpratpoi.htm) says it straight out:

Is fluoride used as a rat poison? No. Although fluoride in extremely high doses was used as a rat poison before the first World War, it did not work very well

But that's just one little voice in the crowd of hysterical anti-fluoride websites. Rather more convincing is the fact that an extensive discussion on the range of baits available ([2] (http://animalscience.ucdavis.edu/Avian/pfs23.htm)) doesn't mention it. It's not surprising when you consider the toxicity - 52mg/kg for NaF, compared to 0.27 mg/kg for Brodifacoum (used in "Talon"). In other words, you'd need 200 times as much bait to kill a rat, compared to modern rodenticides. Toxicity data for NaF came from [3] (http://www.mcb.ucdavis.edu/faculty-labs/kaplan/Safety_Info/MSDSs/sodium_fluoride.htm) -- Tim Starling

Please change the article accordingly. --mav

I have removed mention of the effectiveness as a rat poison. I have also changed "has been used" to "was used". Are we sure it was in the past, though, and it is not still being used? - Mark Ryan

Good job, Tim. - Mark Ryan

Note that it is used for cockroach poison, see for example [4] (http://pmeiers.bei.t-online.de/p-insecticides.htm). -- Tim Starling

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Clutch, were you by any chance abused as a child by a social worker named Fluorine?