Talk:First Lady of the United States

Archive of previous discussion at Talk:First Lady of the United States/Archive.

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Picking up where I think we left off, I'm going to add some more details before making a proposal. I'm hoping that we are close to accord on this article. The following is my POV opinion, adapted to accomodate what others have expressed.

Table of contents 1 Problems with the phrase "First Lady" 2 The central problems 3 Which authority? 4 Specific examples and loose ends 5 Proposed Solution

Problems with the phrase "First Lady"

Is there a definitive answer to what a "First Lady" is? The simplest approach is to reserve this phrase to refer only to living wives of sitting presidents, but this approach is not in keeping with established convention. The term was basically invented in 1877, so any attempt to enumerate First Ladies before then is going to be absent of contemporanous support.

The central problems

There are two central problems. The first is the lack of agreement for when non-wives can be called "First Lady". The second is that there is no central entity that officially bestows the title.

Which authority?

If there were a single entity that bestowed the title of "First Lady", we could simply defer to that body in making our list. Unfortunately, there is no such entity. There are several "experts" that have complied lists of "First Ladies", but these lists are in disagreement. If we are to use a list from one of these "experts" as our authority, we need to agree on which of them to use.

The two "most official" lists I know are at whitehouse.gov (and was copied from The First Ladies by Margaret Brown Klapthor and Allida Black and published by the White House Historical Association) and at the National First Ladies' Library. The former errs towards "wives only", while the latter errs towards those who filled the role.

Specific examples and loose ends

To assist us, I have made a list of every candidate for consideration for "First Lady" that I know of, and classified them by their circumstances.

Class A - Wives of Presidents

subclass A-a - Living Wives of Sitting Presidents

This subclass covers the vast majority of women under consideration and presents us with the least disagreement. These women are "First Ladies" under every meaningful definition.

Martha Washington, Abigail Adams, Dolley Madison, Elizabeth Monroe, Louisa Adams, Letitia Tyler, Julia Tyler, Sarah Polk, Abigail Fillmore, Jane Pierce, Mary Lincoln, Eliza Johnson, Julia Grant, Lucy Hayes, Lucretia Garfield, Frances Cleveland, Caroline Harrison, Frances Cleveland, Ida McKinley, Edith Roosevelt, Helen Taft, Ellen Wilson, Edith Wilson, Florence Harding, Grace Coolidge, Lou Hoover, Eleanor Roosevelt, Bess Truman, Mamie Eisenhower, Jackie Kennedy, Lady Bird Johnson, Pat Nixon, Betty Ford, Rosalynn Carter, Nancy Reagan, Barbara Bush, Hillary Clinton, and Laura Bush

(*) Anna Harrison and Margaret Taylor are special cases covered below in D below.

subclass A-b - Late Wives of Sitting Presidents

Some lists will include late wives who died before their husbands took office as "First Ladies", while other lists exclude these women as never holding the position.

Martha Jefferson, Rachel Jackson, Hannah Van Buren, Ellen Arthur, and Alice Roosevelt

subclass A-c - Divorced Wives of Sitting Presidents

Ronald Reagan is the only president to have divorced. His first wife is generally not considered a "First Lady", although some lists will include her.

Jane Wyman

subclass A-d - New Wives of Former Presidents

Two presidents have remarried after their presidential terms were complete. These new wives are generally not considered "First Ladies", although some lists will include them.

Caroline Fillmore and Mary Lord Harrison

Class B - Hostesses of Presidents without Wives

This class covers those women who acted as hostess for Presidents who were without wives, due to either being bachelors or widowers. Many, but not all, lists will call these "First Ladies".

Martha Jefferson Randolph, Dolley Madison (under Thomas Jefferson), Emily Donelson, Sarah Yorke Jackson, Angelica Van Buren, Priscilla Tyler, Harriet Lane, Mary McElroy, Rose Cleveland, Mary McKee

Class C - Substitutes for A and B

This class covers those women who "filled in" for one of the above women when the official hostess was sick, injured, or otherwise unable to do her duties. These women are generally not considered "First Ladies", although some lists will include them.

Maria Jefferson Eppes, Eliza Hay, Letitia Semple, Mary Fillmore, Martha Patterson, Helen Taft, Margaret Wilson, Helen Bones, and Chelsea Clinton.

Class D - Oddball cases

There were two special cases that did not fit directly into any of the above.

First: President William Harrison died in Washington before his wife Anna could join him. In the short time that he was there, his daughter Jane filled the role of hostess. Since Anna was never present in the White House, and never acted as hostess, lists differ as to how they recognize Anna versus Jane.

Second: Margaret Taylor, wife of President Zachary Taylor, had no interest whatsoever in fulfulling the social duties of hostess. Although she was resident in Washington, the role of First Lady was instead filled by her daughter, Mary Bliss. Lists differ as to how the recognize Margaret versus Mary.

Proposed Solution

I propose we accept as "First Lady" all women noted as such by the National First Ladies' Library. Generally, they recognize class A-a, class B, Margaret Taylor, Jane Harrison, and Anna Harrison as "First Lady in Abstentia". This would let us recognize some "authority" without making arbitrary decisions ourselves, as long as we agree to merge Mary Bliss from category D into category C.

I further propose that in a separate list we note the women in class C as being "acting" or "temporary" first ladies, and I'm open to how we phrase this.

I'm not sure how to handle the women from A-b, A-c, or A-d. I'm open to suggestions

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A very interesting and thought provoking solution. Congratulations. I'll have to give it some thought before making suggestions. One thing does strike me. I don't think it necessary to list as First Lady any woman who was not associated with a president when in office, eg, wives who died before their husbands became president, ex-wives from before their husband became president, wives married after their husband left office. But other than that, well done on a very constructive and thought-provoking proposal. ÉÍREman 01:41 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)

I agree about classes A-b, A-c, and A-d. The two definitions both exclude these women, since they were neither hostesses of the White House nor wives of sitting presidents. I think it would be highly counterintuitive to have Jane Wyman on a list of first ladies. - Montréalais

Oy. I'm sure this is just a first cut, but the ladies' names need to be matched with the actual Wiki articles. It's Martha Washington, for example. -- Zoe

Hi Zoe. I just did my best at accomplishing that by creating redirect articles where I knew they would help. -º¡º

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Regarding the language or have her husband act as an analogous "First Gentleman", "First Master", or "First Lord".

The point is that nobody know what unofficial title, if any, would be applied to the husband of a female president. First Gentleman is a good guess, and is pleasing to the ear due to the assumed balance between "Lady" and "Gentlemen". But the title of "First Lady" reflects on the social duties of being "Lady of the house". The analogs to this position are "Master of the house" or "Lord of the house", and hence the improbable "First Master" and "First Lord".

Sorry, no. "First Master" or "First Lord" will never happen; it wouldn't even occur to the people concerned. - Hephaestos 20:08 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)

It isn't an issue of peerage, it is a question of social etiquette. "Lady of the House" and "Master of the House' are phrases used in etiquette handbooks to decribe the hostess and host of a social occasion. The word "Lady" in "First Lady" comes from her social role, and hence "First Master", although doubtful, is possible. "First Husband" has also been hypothesized, although the article does not propose it.

I can't imagine more than three US citizens liking "First Master", and newspapers would have a field day. The choice of term is politically touchy, and the female candidate's team will have chosen and popularized the "best" one, for instance by mentioning it casually on morning talk shows, well before the nominating convention so that it doesn't become a campaign issue. Stan 21:30 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The thing here in my view is that these need to be valid possibilities that have been conjectured by someone whose opinion is relevant (for one example, a former White House protocol officer). If my memory serves,"First Gentleman" and "First Husband" fit this bill, but "First Master" and "First Lord" don't (although I'll gladly retract that view if a citation can be made where someone mentioned these in a non-jocular manner). - Hephaestos 21:36 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)