Talk:Evolution/Micro vs Macro

Micro/Macroevolution I'm not quite sure why microevolution and macroevolution are in two separate categories. It's a distinction that deserves some attention, but evolution/natural selection should be first considered as a whole and the differences between the two explained in a small addendum. Macroevoultion = the appearance and dissapearance of species, microevolution = change within a species. Also, I feel the creationist/scientific debate deserves a place on this page, but it too should get its own category. One section for the current scientific theories, another for creationist objections, scientific rebuttals, creationist rebutalls to rebutalls etc.

-Emmett

Thats a misconception- although many scientists argue that the same processes are involved in the speciation and other 'macroevolutionary' phenomena there are others who think that different process are involved then microevolution. The evidence may be controversal, but I think that they should be treated as different subjects, especially as there is such a clear difference between the two schools of thought and a lot of evolutionary literature deals with this topic.

Evolution has lots of interesting stories about scientists studying changes within existing species, such as antibiotic resistance in bacteria, but nowhere does it provide evidence that such changes can lead to new species, much less new forms of living things. --Ed Poor

This is one of the most oft-repeated myths around. There is abundant evidence of this. Even I (a non-biologist) can think of several new species that have been created by human breeding programs - the most obvious example is the nowhere-found-in-nature plant you are eating the crushed seeds of when you sit down for your morning corn flakes. It is worth noting that there is a very clever debating tactic used by anti-evolution campaigners here: first you claim that "science cannot identify any missing links between species" and then, once you have scientists running around pointing at examples of intermediate forms, you go limp on that charge and turn it around backwards, claiming instead that, seeing as there are all these intermediate forms, they are just variations around a mean, and therefore there is "no evidence for any new species". (I'm not suggesting that Ed said that, I should hasten to add, just that it's a common debating tactic amongst the more unscrupulous campaigners, and one that writers on evolution need to be aware of.) Tannin 06:47 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)

The field of evolution is divided into two broad areas; microevolution and macroevolution.

Do actual biologists make this distinction? I know creationists do, in which case we should discuss it in that context (and possibly in the article on creationism or intelligent design). --Robert Merkel

No, biologists don't use those terms; they are the inventions of creationists so their definitions can change to dance around whatever evidence turns up. --LDC

I raised the same objection to Maveric149, and he convinced me that it is indeed a biological concept. I did some more checking on my own and indeed, these are valid biological terms. The point of contention is whether there is an absolute or relative difference between micro- and macroevolution. Scientists use ther terms to gloss a relative distinction. Creationists use the terms to argue for an absolute distinction. But to claim that micro- and macroevolution are two distinct processes is wrong and misconstrues scientific usage of the terms. Slrubenstein

I just did a major revision of the format and I think the article makes a lot more sense now. However, it is still confusing, largely because there is too much chatter, especially in the macroevolution section. I wrote an introduction for that section (which should really be the entire section) and I hope it clarifies the essence of the macroevolution debate among scientists. Regarding creationists and macroevoltion: if the macroevolutionists are right, then there is a huge issue in the history of life with little or no explanation. Most scientists don't have a problem with this; it just means that there is more work to be done. Any time a scientist says "I don't know", some arrogant fool has to jump in and pretend that he has all of the answers. adam

First, I have a question. Can we have "macroevolution" (as a concept) without "macromutation". I don't want to hear "Yes, we can have speciation without a special class of mutations specifically for that purpose." I want to know if anyone speaks of macroevolution without the assumption that it is caused by a specific type of mutation. Without "macromutation", I don't see how "macroevolution" is any different than speciation and divergence. However, I did a Google search for "macroevolution" and found a few articles that defined macroevolution without reference to macromutation. If they are separate concepts, I made a mistake; my knowledge is limited to the debate over macroMUTATION and I know nothing about macroevolution.

That being said, I tried to report the current status of the macromutation debate among scientists. Some scientists have told me their opinion first hand (and even if they don't believe in macromutation, their explanation of their belief showed that they are aware of it as a debate among scientists). Similar information can be found by doing a Google search on "macroevolution". I haven't done a search on "macromutation" yet. Anyway, I wrote this and some anonymous person trashed what I wrote and attributed my opinion (and the opionion of my professor) to creationists. LEAVE THE CREATIONISTS OUT OF THIS!!! I wish this person had read the talk page, and had read the articles referenced by Google, and had signed in so that I could direclty communicate with him.

BTW: This page should be limited to the general scientific consensus about evolution. Macromutation is an ongoing debate and should only be mentioned. Likewise, macroevoltuion (if there is such a thing independent of theories of marcomutation) is a very specific field and should also only be mentioned. This is very frustrating adam

If I may anwser my own question; I have just started reading Gould's "Structure of Evolutionary Theory" and he repeatedly uses the terms "macroevolution" and "microevolution". To avoid argument, he wants to use them in a purely descriptive way, leaving an open question about whether they are different processes. Using this descriptive definition, the main reason for the distinction is that we learn about macroevolution and microevolution through different methods...basically macroevolution is what a paleotologist sees, while microevolution is what a geneticist sees. adam