Talk:Evolution/Creationism

Moved from Talk:Evolution --Brion 23:19 Jan 19, 2003 (UTC)

Creationism as it applies to the article

I don't want to but in and change a page on an issue that is controversial, but I think the two paragraphs about creationism unbalanced. The creationist movement exists only in the US. There is no debate about creationism in relation to evolution in the rest of the western world, and quite possibly the rest of the world too. If we mention creationism at all, it should be much less prominent, and clearly marked to be US-only. Something along the lines of:

In the US there is a significant Christian movement that rejects macro-evolution on relgious grounds. See Creationism for details.

NTF

I'm not sure what you're seeing here--I see only one paragraph that mentions creationism at all (and doesn't even link to it, which it should), and it's only a brief mention of one of its claims that doesn't really interfere with the rest of what is a reasonable article. Any more details about the creationist movement itself should be on that page, but I don't see any problem with a brief mention here in the proper context, as long as we aren't actually expressing any creationist views here. --LDC

I'm talking about the two paragraphs that start "Some proponents of creationism...." and the next one "Among laymen, .....". The second one doesn't mention creationism, but is closely linked to it. A quick visual estimate shows that these two paragraphs are about 10% of the total explanation on the page. I think that gives way too much attention to what is, in my opinion, an archaic view held by a minority of the people in a single country on the other side of the world. If we include this, we should probably include large paragraphs about related religious and philosophical views held in China, India, and Africa too. NTF

Stuff that belongs on talk.origins (Creationism and the nature of science)

Ed removed this important sentence, and replaced it with irrelevant nonsense, so I restored it:

It is worth noting that the mechanism (natural selection) is logically independent of the observation that evolution does indeed occur. Thus, a disproof of Darwinism does not in itself disprove the occurrence of evolution which is an observable fact based on evidence from many fields (e.g. embryology?, paleontology, genetics).

Ed, I respect your religious beliefs, and I appreciate that you want to cover them here. Please do so on the pages devoted to those beliefs. But keep your hands off the real science pages which you clearly aren't qualified to edit. A lot of us have spent a lot of time and energy and decades of education and research on these issues, and we don't appreciate that being take lightly by someone who hasn't. --LDC

I guess I'm not clear on whether Natural Selection is (a) what causes the species to come into being or (b) what causes newly arisen species to survive or perish. Make that clear, and I'll fold my hands in prayer :-) --Ed Poor

Perhaps you could read a book about the topic, since you seem very interested in it? Natural selection acts on variations. Over time it results in change. There should be several books at your local bookstore that will explain this far more clearly than any of us here. GregLindahl

Lee, I think it is very impolite to call an edit that you disagree with "vandalism". --AxelBoldt

Yeah, I could take that personally if I weren't such a humble and friendly guy <wink> --Ed Poor

I do get pretty emotional about this topic, but I'm really not a mean guy. "Vandalism" was a bit over the top, so let me amend that to "unjustified removal of important information". The best layman's explanation of the basics of the neo-Darwinian systhesis I've seen is Dawkin's The Blind Watchmaker. That's a good start, although a real understanding of the subject requires years of study. --LDC

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Added this bit after helpful advice from Greg

It is worth noting that the theory of evolution is not falsifiable, hence not a scientific? theory at all, since it includes the claim that God did not intervene in evolutionary history by creating new forms of life. It is held by nearly all biologists, however, for philosophical reasons.

Excuse me? Don't be blaming me for your complete misunderstanding of the issues. Again, I urge you to educate yourself by reading a book on the history of science and philosophy instead of editing articles on Wikipedia. GregLindahl

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Removed this:

It is worth noting that the theory of evolution is not falsifiable, hence not a scientific theory at all, since it includes the claim that God did not intervene in evolutionary history by creating new forms of life. It is held by nearly all biologists, however, for philosophical reasons.

because the theory of evolution makes no such claims. It doesn't mention God's involvement one way or the other. -BD

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Huh? Why is it called "natural" selection if supernatural action could be involved? The whole point of Darwin's theory is to provide an explanation of evolution which requires only natural processes. This is not to insist that the material universe was not created by God, or sustained by him, or that these natural processes do not operate by his power and will, but that divine intervention in violation of these processes is not involved. My objection to the statement is the claim that evolution by natural selection is "not a scientific theory at all", when of course it is. -HWR

What I mean is that the theory of Evolution, by itself, doesn't make a statement equivalent to "God did not create new forms of life." It doesn't say _anything_ about whether God created life forms; the theory of evolution isn't concerned with abiogenesis. However, once those life forms do exist, the theory of evolution describes how they will change over time. This is compatable with the notion that God created the first simple forms of life and they then proceeded to evolve on their own into what we've got today, for example. Not that I believe this myself, I'm personally an atheist, but some people do believe it and the theory of evolution makes no claims about where its "starting material" comes from (God or natural abiogenesis or panspermia or wherever) as long as it's capable of descent with modification. -BD

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Lee, I'd like to make a distinction between creationists and other theory of evolution critics.

1. I regard creationists as merely expressing their religious faith, i.e., their scripture-based belief that God created (a) the Earth and (b) each species of life.
2. I regard the so-called creation science movement primarily as an attempt to justify and/or spread their religious faith, but
3. I regard intelligent design adherents as trying to approach the observed facts with an open mind and concluding, "it looks like there would have to be a designer".

Using this model, I would see no point in "rebutting" creationism, as it is merely an expression of theology. We don't rebut the Hindu or Shinto creation stories. As for creation science, I would focus on showing where its adherents cross the line from faith expression into scientific claim and point out any pseudo-science such as unfalsifiable hypotheses or selective use of evidence.

In contrast, I would give intelligent design a more serious look, respecting its self-description as being distinct from creationism and merely examine it on its merits.

Please tell me whether you think this model will be useful. I regard you as the subject matter expert as far as biology and geology goes. I see myself as perhaps being more conversant with the theological beliefs and public policy aims of faith-based organizations.

Ed Poor

Ed, I just do not understand what you are trying to do here. My understanding of Wikipedia is that it has nothing to do with our (meaning, we contributors') opinions; it has to do with our attempts to provide accurate and intelligible accounts of various phenomena, including various debates. I am not trying to use Wikipedia to "rebut" any religion; I am trying to use it to present adequate accounts of various topics of interest to me, including evolution. And as far as this topic goes, by your own definition "creationism" is not "merely an expression of theology." It is making empirical claims, specifically, about how species arise. These claims flat out contradict the claims of science. People are free to reject the empirical evidence, the methods of science, or the epistemoligical principles of science -- but they cannot deny a conflict between this epistemology/method/interpretation of evidence and the claim that God created each species independently. I am not saying that creationism makes a "scientific" claim since its epistemology and methods are not scientific -- but it most definitly is making a claim about the same phenomena science is making a claim about, and creationism's claim and science's claim are in conflict. And OF COURSE other "creationist" claims about the origin of species (such as those of Hindus and Shintos). This is obvious, isn't it? What is your point -- that the article does not single out Hindu and Shinto creationists? Well, honestly, how many Hindus and Shintos are making sustained public efforts to refute scientific models of evolution? In the United States, at least, it isn't really an issue, is it? And by the way, just because Hindus and Shintos have non-Darwinian creation-myths, I would not immediately conclude (as you seem to) that they are reject Darwin. Catholics and Jews read the same book of Genesis that fundamentalist Protestants do -- but this does not mean that they are "creationists." The Catholic Church accepts Darwin's theory of speciation, as do many if not most Jews. The issue is not what the myths sat, but how people interpret them. Slrubenstein

What I'm trying to do here is suggest that the most important contrast is between the accepted scientific theory of evolution and "creation science", rather than between the theory of evolution and "creationism". The only relevant comment from the scientific community in the creationism article should be one or two sentences and a link. It is with so-called "scientific creationism" which makes definite scientific claims that the theory of evolution is best contrasted. That's what I meant. Many religions also believe in life after death, the efficacy of prayer and so on, but we wikipedians don't feel it necessary to rebut those claims, do we?

Again, it is not a question of whether we Wikipedians want to "rebut" those claims, it is whether there is a public debate over these questions that Wikipedia should describe. And I do not think there is any public debate between science and religion over the efficacy of prayer today. I am not sure why -- one reason may be that the public debate over prayer, for constitutional reasons, is focused on whether prayer should be mandated in public schools or not (similarly, by the way, I doubt there would be any manor public debate over creationism versus science were it not for the question of what should be taught in schools; one could construe all or most of these religion vs. secular controversies in terms of educational policy). Another reason could be that a much earlier generation of scientists -- I am thinking of people like Diderot and others at the time of the Enlightenment -- "rebutted" claims about prayer and an afterlife to their own satisfaction. Slrubenstein

I am just trying to re-focus the topics with a view to a possible re-arrangement, as I did (with feedback from Danny and help from Uriyan) with the British Mandate of Palestine. The last thing I'd want to do is somehow use the 'pedia to put the imprimatur on my pet POV on anything. Ed Poor

Okay, Ed, I see it a bit differently. I think the main point of contention between creation scientists and Darwinian scientists is over what "science" is and how it should work; the question of where species come from is a real question, but secondary to this larger question. The main point of contention between creationists and Darwinian scientists is NOT over "what 'science' is" (since creationists as such are not caliming to be ascientific), it is solely over "where do different species come from." Slrubenstein

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I changed "the process of microevolution has been put to use in computers..." to "processes of evolution" because "microevolution" is not a process, it describes a scale of change. Mutation and genetic drift are examples of the processes at work, and these are the exact same processes (among others) at work in "microevolution." Slrubenstein

The evolution, theory of evolution, intelligent design, creation science and creationism articles need a major overhaul. I don't know enough about any of these topics to do it by myself. Thanks to all who are devoting so much time to these weighty topics. --Ed Poor

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I thought the comments below taken from a metawiki talk page, Origins of Everything (http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_Everything), would be of interest here and something to consider (although perhaps more relevant to a Controversies re Evolution article if one is ever created). Someone, somewhere sometime once said: "Imagination is more important than knowledge...":

"I would argue that the simplest explanation of all is that the universe was always here. Alan D"

"I'd go further and add that it is here to stay and that God is a natural extension of the universe. If mainstream Christianity (or other religions for that matter) were not so invested in its transcendent God (a concept which atheists and many philosophers and scientists recognize as incoherent and rubbish) and settled for a being that was, shall I say, a little more down to earth, religous conflicts with certain scientific theories (like the theory of evolution) would be seemingly moot. Consider that the process of evolution is ongoing...what comes next after humans? Genetically enhanced superhumans? what then?...and after that? Consider a being that over time nature has endowed with such power, knowledge (and hopefully benevolence) that humans might perceive, THAT is God! At that point god or God or supreme being or whatever you want to call it would work as an extension of the universe in creation or evolution whichever you want to call it. B"

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