Talk:Christopher Columbus

Long, sordid previous discussion archived at Talk:Christopher Columbus/Archived talk since the page is getting too long to edit in some browsers.

See also Talk:Christopher Columbus/Archived talk 2 with even more slave explorer trade banter.

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Here's some links that quote from Columbus' diary.

• http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/columbus1 (really good one)
• http://admin.muslimsonline.com/babri/columbus3.htm

He says, on first meeting Arawaks:

I was very attentive to them, and strove to learn if they had any gold.

Which would indicate that wealth was his primary motivation. So, he's a bastard and he took slaves, but I don't think that was his goal in the first voyage.

It is not such a strange thing that they wanted gold. It was not uncommon to trade worthless (to the Europeans) glass beads for worthless (to the Indians) gold. Such is the nature of trade. We only think that the Europeans ripped off the Indians because we think like Europeans. Now of course killing them for gold is bad, but who wouldn't want to be paid for their work? This voyage was a trade mission and like any business venture, it needed profit. He is hardly a terrible person because he wanted wealth. If so, we are all in big trouble most likely! -- Ram-Man

I'm most impressed by the fact that what is presented to elementary-school kids about Columbus is carefully sanitized to remove references to brutality towards natives, taking of slaves, cutting off of hands and ears, lust for gold, etc. That would be like talking about Charles Lindbergh but neglecting to mention the fact that he supported the Nazis... oh, wait.

Thankfully we at wikipedia can do better. Graft

• Lindbergh? If you're talking about active support I think Henry Ford would be a better example.

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I linked the article to Perceptions of Columbus which outlines good and evil archetypes of Columbus. It's a charged subject (like Palestinian homeland) -- and might be used as a proxy for larger issues, like imperialism and so on. --Ed Poor

• Perceptions of Columbus seems well incorporated into the main article here now, so I changed it to a redirect to Christopher Columbus. Infrogmation 20:16 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

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Christopher Columbus (Spanish: Cristóbal Colón, Italian: Cristoforo Colombo, 1451-1506) was a Genoese trader who crossed the Atlantic Ocean and reached the Americas in 1492

Lir, you changed "Genoese explorer" to "Genoese trader". Please don't get bent out of shape, if someone thisk Columbus was primarily an explorer -- even if he was also a trader.

You might want to add a sentence or 2 later in the article, which talks about Columbus's career as a trader. When and where did he trade? What did he trade in? If his cargo included human beings, then we might call him a "Genoeses explorer and slave trader".

When writing an article, as your English teacher probably told you, it's good to follow up introductory thoughts (like trader) with additional information: like "Columbus spent the rest of his life making journeys of exploration and trade across the Atlantic, amassing a small fortune from profits on stolen gold and kidnapped natives whom he cruelly sold into slavery in Spain, Italy and Corsica." (Note: I completely made up the last sentence; it's an example of the kind of information which, if true, justifies calling Columbus a trader.)

Get it? --Ed Poor 23:55 Oct 22, 2002 (UT

Lir, when the page gets too big, sometimes you can't edit expecially with Internet Explorer. Some of this probably needs to be archived. But really, IT IS ALL YOUR FAULT it is so full. Fredbauder 00:09 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

Most browsers on MacOS are vulnerable to this, maybe others too; the edit box craps out at around 32k of text. We were up to about 38k... I've moved old stuff to Talk:Christopher Columbus/Archived talk. --Brion 00:17 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

Ummmm....k. Columbos should be called by his proper Italian/Spanish name. Lir 00:18 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

Well, right or wrong that's not how he's called in English. --Brion 00:23 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

But that is how he is called in English. When your friend Juan shows up to party do u call him John? When your friend Franz shows up do you insist on calling him Frank?

I'd call them by the names that everyone else who knows them use to call them in English; since you've postulated in English that they are Juan and Franz, that is, ipso facto, what they are called in English. A certain overcelebrated washed-up Genoese entrepreneur of low moral fiber is known in English as Christopher Columbus. A certain 1st-century Jewish rabble rouser is known in English as Jesus. A certain 20th-century American politician is known as Jimmy Carter despite technically being James Earl Carter, Junior. An island not far from Europe is known in English as Ireland, as is the country that resides on it. A certain country on the mainland is known in English as Russia. Yadda yadda yadda. From your one-note strawman argument I can only assume that you don't actually read anything I've been writing on this subject, or that you're simply trolling. Please feel free to prove me wrong by responding intelligently to the content of other peoples' replies. --Brion 01:11 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

Ummmmm...k- what language *is* "Italian/Spanish"? Is that like Esparanto?

Ho jes, Kristoforo Kolombo!

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One of the "sources" listed on the old talk page states that Columbus killed 8 million natives. That's pretty remarkable given that if he killed one native per minute, day and night, non- stop, it would have taken him about 16 years straight. Maybe Columbus invented the nuclear bomb, too?

I believe they are referring to those killing under the orders of Colombo. It is akin to saying Hitler killed 12,000,000.

But if he was a slaver, why would he destroy his "stock"?

Are you sure you're not confusing Colombo with his followers ? Maybe he was a slave trader, that's no reason enough to order to kill millions. As far as I know, he did not stay long in America. No way he could order or would have ordered such killings. FvdP

You know...Colombo was a hero of Hitlers...

This overheard argument proves absolutely nothing. Hitler liked Eva Braun. Eva Braun did not order to kill millions. FvdP

Let me clarify, Colombo was a hero of Hitlers because Colombo was so effective at extinguishing the Untermensche.

Yet another unsubstantiated claim.... I'm not following you on this. And, I note that you cleverly avoided to answer my original argument: Why and how would CC have ordered to kill millions? FvdP

Lir, first: please sign your comments. It makes it easier to understand who said what, and I think we agree that communication is important. Second: Please remember that when you're making claims that go against accepted belief, you have to back those claims up. People want to know who said this thing that they do not believe so they can read it in further depth for themselves. Finally, please understand that you may not ever change anyone's opinion. Some people listen, some people don't. Some people care, some people don't. You may be right, you may not. :-) --KQ

Im making claims that lots of people here agree with and have submitted evidence for. Some people are refusing to make any effort to understand the subject. Lir 01:12 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

And you're still avoiding efforts to answer my argument. I'm not sure were your lot of people are, since I'm not one of them. Like KQ wrote better than I would have, I'm ready to accept reasonable evidence, after I examined it. If "understand the subject" means "accept bare claims as Lir writes them down", then surely I refuse to make that "effort". --FvdP

Hitler did vocally admire the policies of exterminating Indians by both Columbus and the American government (I will attempt to find a source right now). I think the high number is a combination of people killed directly by columbus, by his men on his orders in order to subjugate the natives by frightening them, directly or indirectly killing slaves in transit to Europe, and him and his men introducing (albeit accidentally and without their knowledge) diseases such as smallpox and syphilis to which the natives had no defense to. Tokerboy 01:13 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

Hitler was not a all-encompassing genius. He may be wrong on Colombus. Further, there is a claim of million victims here. Apart of diseases, I don't see where these victims come from. And if it's by disease, it's unintentional. Really a different thing that "ordering to kill millions". And probably not due to CC alone. (Well, I may cease the discussion anytime soon without a warning, lest it becomes just endless.) FvdP

See? Im not on krak but George Bush is... Lir 01:14 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)