Talk:Arabs and anti-Semitism

I don't think we need all this kinds of silly talks; alot of dumb things are written any day.

How can you have an article on anti-Semitism, and then remove examples of anti-Semitism? These actions that you call "silly" have raised a generation of suicide bombers that believe it is Allah's will to mass-murder Jews. How can you imply that such an signiciant sociological development be removed? RK

• Syrian has claimed in the UN that Jews murder and eat Christian babies for Passover
• Egyptian newspapers claims that Jews lace bubble gum with aphrodisiacs to cause Muslim girls to lose sexual inhibitions
• Egyptian and Palestinian newspaper claim that Jews invented HIV (the virus that causes AIDS)

The article needs to be shortened and needs references a well.-- Di Stroppo

No, this article does not need to be shortened. In fact, like most Wikipedia entries, it needs people well schooled in this area to expand on it. Wikipedia intends on becoming a full fledged encyclopaedia; its not a mere dictionary. People come to this project to contribute scholarship. RK

Constructive does not mean just to dump various bits and pieces of information in a text box. We need a well written article that is focused using verified material not just copying gossip and hate. -- Di Stoppo

I agree, but what does that have to with the well-reseached and indisputable facts here? You seem desperate to hide the beliefs of hundreds of thousands of Muslim Arabs, especially those influenced by the Islamist movement. Quoting the Arab;s own pointof view, in their own words, and giving further references to show how accurate and representative this is is not gossip. In fact, this is precise opposite of gossip. Have you read any texts on this subject? RK

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I think it would also be valuable to historicize this discussion (as the article on Christian anti-semitism is). I was taught that Muslim Spain was a great time/place for Jews -- quite different from the situation today. I wonder how much Arab anti-semitism was aroused or even created by the rise of modern nationalism (both Arab nationalism and Zionism)? In any event, I think the aticle would be stronger if it could document changing Arab attitudes, as well as differences between official and popular attitudes towards Jews, and the changing contexts for these activities, SR

As SR had pointed out, the terms "Arab" and "Muslim" are not interchangeably. Many Arabs are Christians (maybe 2%, 5%, more?) , a tiny percent are are of the druze faith (though they rarely refer to themselves as Arabs). In the western world a small number of Arabs are likely Unitarians, deists, humanists and atheists. Similarly, a large number of Muslims are not Arab. Perhaps the current title of the entry should be re-titled "Islamic anti-Semitism"? I will not change the name of the entry today, to see if any other useful name suggestions come up. RK

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I have completely no expertise in this area, but this passage struck me as odd:

Unlike Christianity, Muslims sought to conquer the world through force of arms, rather than through conversion. As such, when Muslim armies conquered nations, they felt no special need to force Jews (or Christians) to convert to Islam. Members of other religions, however, were forced to convert, or they were killed.

There was never a Christian program to conquer the world. There is one in Islam, but if memory serves the original idea in the Koran was more like conversion than anything else; certainly "world conquering" is a lousy description for the idea.

Right, I was trying to show a contrast between Christianity and Islam. Christianity never officially sent armies over the planet to convert the world to Christianity. (although individual Kings and Queens effectively did this; but they did so as part of a nationalist agenda, and not a theological one.) In contrast, the Quran commands Muslims to conquer the world for Islam; during Mohammed's life and in the centuries after, that is what they actually did. They succeeded in militarily conquering over a third of the known world at the time. Muslim armies swept over nation after nation. Only massive amount of military force from Christian nations stopped the expansion of Islam. To this day Islamic law requires that Muslims reconquer the lands that they lost (including Spain and Israel.) RK

Also, I think the claim that members of other religions were forced to convert or killed is plain wrong, so I'm removing it. Under Muslim rule in India during the Middle Ages, "dhimmi" status was extended to Hindus; similarly Buddhists elsewhere. -- CYD

Jews had it better under nuslims that under Christians - well, from that article it seems that it have more or less the same rights (authonomy, right to practicise its religion) as in Poland (and i guess in few other christian countries the same). What were differences? I would either remove that sentence, or add "with exception of... and here listed few (right now i am thinking about one B-) ) countries". Or what were that rights compared to Jewish authonomy in Poland-Lithuania? Had Jews some authonomy in Hungary too?

For a detailed analysis of this subject, please see "Under Crescent and Cross: The Jews in the Middle Ages", by Mark R. Cohen, Princeton Univ. Press, 1994. The intro to the book says "Did Muslims and Jews in the Middle Ages cohabit in a peaceful "interfaith utopia?" Or were Jews under Muslim rule persecuted, much as they were in Christian lands? Rejecting both polemically charged "myths," Mark Cohen offers a systematic comparison of Jewish life in medieval Islam and Christendom--the first in-depth explanation of why medieval Islamic-Jewish relations, though not utopic, were less confrontational and violent than those between Christians and Jews in the West."

Website for this book (http://pup.princeton.edu/titles/5421)

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Why is this article titled "Arab anti-Semitism" and seems to only include information about "Islamic anti-Semitism"? Not all Arabs are Muslims and to suggest so would not be very NPOV. This doesn't seem to follow the logic of the more aptly named, "Christian anti-Semitism". I suggest a change in title to Islamic anti-semitism --maveric149

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Shouldn't the "s" in anti-semitism be capitalized? I thought it always was in English and my searches on Google tend to support this. --maveric149

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First of all, MANY ARABIC PEOPLE ARE SAMITES! Samites is a common description for the people living or lived around the Palestine/Israel area, Jews, Palestinians, Samarians, Philistees and so on. Israel has tried with bacteriological warfare against their enemies, they have failed because genetically speaking Jews and Arabs are very similar.

Second of all, taking quotes, from a book written about 1300 years ago, and not mentioning their historical context is stupid.

Third of all, the only thing this shows is a deep ignorance towards Arab culture, yes keep the content rename the article to "Jewish racism against Arabs" it would fit.

Isn't Samite a type of cloth? And if you will read other areas of the Wikipedia, you will see that Arabs are not being singled out -- there are other cases around of articles about anti-Arabism. -- Zoe

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RK, about your recent mass reversion - why did you do it? I agree there are questions to be asked about several of the changes, but many of the changes were putting the Qur'an verses in better context (how can that be less NPOV?) and (the editor claimed) correcting the quotes from the Qur'an - can you explain why you reverted these changes as well as all the others? --Camembert 02:08 Nov 19, 2002 (UTC)

There was no effort at all to represent the situation in a historical light, nor any attempt at all to do anything less than present a full-fledged Islamic apologetic. The person made very clear, in a number of places, that Islam really was the one true religion, and every change he made reflected this viewpoint. Very little of what he or she wrote was NPOV. It would be a huge waste of time to through every single change one sentence at a time. If someone wants to make a good faith effort in adding to or improving this entry, they need to at least try to be NPOV. My user-history shows that I am perfectly willing to do the same kind of revert with regards to articles on other faiths; in recent months I (among others) have done precisely the same thing when presented with Orthodox Jewish apologetical rewrites of articles, or Jehovah Witness Christian apologetical rewrites of articles. It doesn't matter if the person is a member of my faith or not. Even when changes are made that make my preferred faith out to be "the one truth" I have removed such claims, simply because I am trying (the best I can) to be NPOV. RK

I understand that my actions make it look like I am unwilling to accept any changes, but that is not so. We can look through the history of this article, and at our leisure incorporate one change at a time, as long as there some historical scholarship to back it up, or as long as opinions are presented as such. I just would hope that when new changes are made, they don't concern every single paragraph at the same time, and that when changes of major importance are made (as they were) there is something offered in the Talk section to back some of them up. RK

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As a muslim I've always been told to respect all humans and never go against a Jew or Christian sicne they are also followers of the same God. I'd have to definetely say this is fabricated material written by a ignorant individual, and should not be featured as one of the pages in this site. Prophet Mohammad always tells us to love and respect those of other faiths who worship the same God. These quotes are ridiculous fabrications written by misguided people. The Quran has never been interpreted as such or translated in such a manner. Quran verses have always been written in a beautiful poetic manner.

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I changed the title of the article. The title is undoubtedly neutral now, whether or not it was before. --Ed Poor

Some suggestions for completing the article would be:

• charges of anti-Semitism, i.e., claims by Jews and others that some Arabs are, do, or say anti-Semitic things.
• Koran statements
• newspaper statements
• 9/11 responses

I'm not taking sides, and I'm not going to write this. You guys are: RK, elian, DanKeshet, et al. -- while I sit back and watch. --Ed Poor

sorry, I don't have the knowledge for writing about Arab anti-semitism, all I know is that memri is not the place to do research about it (and maybe also not the appropriate site to link to). --Elian

Did someone just change the article back? I'm getting dizzy. Maybe I should just log off for the weekend. Whee! Time off from Wikipedia!! --Ed Poor

Yes, me (explanation on my talk page), so it's not you getting dizzy ;-) Have a nice weekend! --Elian

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Having followed the edit history of this article and reread it, I don't think I will change any jota of this article. If people want to use Wikipedia as a propaganda platform for slandering Arabs, I don't want to stop them, lost in their hatred as they seem. --Elian

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I find the changes I made reasonable, I think the article sounds a bit more neutral now.

The quotation from the Qur'an? Not really, sorry. What this article is missing is a thorough analysis of the development of anti-semitism (how much effect had the creation of Israel?), a critical debate of how much is anti-Israelism and how and if the terms are seperable, a description of the practical institutionalization of anti-semitism (are there any laws in the arab countries which discriminate against Jews, i.e. especially Jews, not just adherents of other religions?). A mere collection of anti-semitic statements of arab jounalists and politicians does not make it an encyclopedia entry. And this is something I can't do, because i don't have the knowledge. I don't want to use ad hominem arguments, but ideally all this should not be written by a Jew, who lacks the necessary distance to discriminate between Anti-Israelism and Anti-Semitism (this is not directed to Jews in general). --Elian

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The quotations written before I excluded them from the original article seemed inexplicit, by replaceing it with a more accurate verse I wanted to show that anti-semitism is a inaccurate interpretation of the Qur'an. The original, inaccurate verses written in the current article led up to these misinterpretations by which the author tried to prove his point. However you certainly seem to make a point. Should we exclude the quotation? --Alireza Hashemi

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Responding both to Elian and to Alireza Hashemi:

Everything relating to Jews in the Middle East is so tangled up that even when people are earnestly looking for common ground they often cannot find it. There is too much hostility, both open and disguised.

There are arguments for against so many large and small points, and many of these are intricately inter-related, too.

We can't even agree on what a "Palestinian" is, or whether a Palestinian state exists! These latter two difficulties alone make it just about impossible to write any neutral articles, even when a writer is determined not to take sides.

I don't know how to achieve NPOV in this article. I just know that it's good to try, and that I will keep trying. Please help me, everyone. --Ed Poor

Hello Alireza, nice that you adopted a user name, it is a lot easier to communicate. Now I understand :-) In fact, I split the article in two and moved everything about Islam to Anti-Semitism in Islam since: first) not all Arabs are Muslims and second) not all Muslims are Arabs. I would suggest to exclude the quotation. If you like, have a look at the article on Anti-Semitism in Islam and try to neutralize it (I inserted some quotes of Ibn Hisham, but there is a lot more to be done). Be careful and prepare for edit wars, though! --Elian

I've attempted to create something that addresses why anti-semitism in the arab newspapers. I've attached it as a link instead of putting it in the article. What is really needed are for people from arab countries to write this.

'Please' specify for the sake of NPOV. It's absolutely trivial to claim that there are anti-Semitic newspapers (a lot of countries do), and specify which newspapers, what governments, etc. I've tried to do begin this in the article, but I implore you to add more.

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I removed : "Thanks to the efforts of American pro-Israeli organizations, the world is kept well informed about what this tiny minorty thinks. Their views should correctly be compared to the hate mongering of religious extremist settlers in the West Bank, Gaza and in other places." I have no thanks to write or say. A lot of not-american and not pro-Israeli peoples and organisations are vigilant about anti-semitism, as they are for any other form of racism. Ericd 21:28 Feb 8, 2003 (UTC)

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RK I reverted the previous edit by Quasar. But why do you revert this one ? What is anti-semitic.

Ericd 00:01 Feb 9, 2003 (UTC)