User talk:Tom Peters

Hi Tom. Looking at your user page, you obviously know your way around, but greetings anyway. jimfbleak 07:14 11 Jun 2003 (UTC)

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Hi Tom. Just to say that you've made nice additions and corrections to the Kidinnu article. I have two short questions regarding it, if you please:

1. I am still confused in writing B.C. instead of wiki style BC. Should I continue to write in a form [[402 BC|402 B.C.]] or not? What is your opinion since you like time calculations... I've seen that someone changed just to wiki form BC.
2. It would be fine to show somewhere how to calculate from a sexagesimal time calculations (for instance 29d 31:50:8:20 to 29d + 12h + 793/1080h or to 29d 12h 44 m (3.33...s) form).
   

As for Hipparchos. Is it a good manner to change all existent Latinized names to their original ones? (Herodotus, Eudoxus, Philolaus, Iamblichus, Monoimus (original is Arab), Hippolytus, ...). It is strange for me as a foreign-born that it can't be definitely distinguished what form of a certain name should be used in English. If this help, my native language generally cuts Greek termination "-os" and by-passes Latinization. In this manner it might be in English: Hipparch, Horodot, Eudox, Philolas, Iamblich, Hippolyt, but English is not what we think it is. On the other side it is OK for Meton[?], Anaximander and such. You should also correct back all wrong external links there at Hipparchos. I also hope that the article of Hipparchos will be as good and acceptable for all as Kidinnu's is. And also about Cyprus regarding your changes at Aratus. How this island was called in Greek time? Was it named also Cilicia (or similar, Cyprus probably not -- I guess Cypros, he, he.) as in Roman times? I assumed this, but you say it is irrelevant. Best regards. --XJamRastafire 07:53 11 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Thank you for your explanations. Interesting about 1/1080d aka "halakiem".

• BC|B.C.: I'll use from now on just wiki style BC, since it is easier. And also my native keyboard does not have keys for "[", "]" and "|", so I have to push ALT+(0)91, ALT+(0)93 and ALT+124 so many times...
• Why do you think that English forms of Greek names without suffixes are worse than original names? They sound fine for me. It is interesting which names changed from their original Greek names to Latinized forms or forms without suffixes... Probably of persons which were the most known in Middle Ages.
• I agree about Hipparchos, since I've already decided to redirect.
• If you're sure for Cyprus so let it stays in this way without possible other ancient name.
• I guess it was already Nabu-rimanni, who found that estimation of synodic month (29d 12h 44m ~5s) and an error less than 1s. This error is probably not correct. I haven't checked it. And as I have written in my notes (sourcess are lost right now) that Hipparchus corrected the error to 23/50s. Perhaps Kidinnu as a young man again measured this value without any improvements. I've rounded Nabu-rimanni's value to 1/100 of seconds according to Starbo's note, so you're right about these two mentioned values, which are in fact the same. One at Kidinnu is rounded to 1s (29.53061343...d; 29.530614d was not mentioned to be raunded to 6th decimal with accuracy of 9/100s) and the other at Nabu-rimanni to 1/100s (29.53061401...d). The problem is also an accuracy of their measurements, so it is rather hard for us where to round all these values and how to show them. I really do not know if they were able to measure within 1/100s. I vote to give the same values with the same accuracy (let us say to 1s or similar). I must also say that I did not have sexagesimal values that you brought up. It is most likely, yes, that Chaldeans calculated time as angles, therefore in sexagesimal system. It is strange that Ptolemy still used calculations based on sexagesimal. I am not sure for Hipparchus. Many sources allege that he was the first who devided circle to 360° and I hardly believe this. This he must have fetched from Babylonia. But if your value of his estimation of tropical year is correct (365d + 1/4 - 1/300), he indeed still calculated in sexagesimal. And perhaps not since this value is in a decimal system.
• 23/50s: What you don't understand? Which value Hipparchus in fact measured around 139 BC? I have no data for this. I just noticed according to all my available sources that he improved Kidinnu's value bellow 0.5s. This might in fact be true, if earlier values are valid.
• Do you have any suggestions how to give these unfortunate values: as in this example of Nabu-rimanni and/or Kidinnu's value of synodic month (error < 1s, positive or negative?):

- 29d 12h 44m 10/3s

- 29.53059414...d

- 29d + 12h + 793/1080h | 29d + 1/2 + 793/25920

- [29;31:50:80:20]₆₀

...

I propose the first one all over together with exceptions (like here with the last one). So if one measures 365d+1/4, we write 365d 6h (and leave 0m 0s). Best regards. --XJamRastafire 13:33 11 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Thank you Tom again for your explanations. Now everything is much clearer. As my web explorer froze I have to write this again.

• ...not before Hipparchus.... As you've correctly noticed this was meant to mean that Hipparchus found the value with an error of 23/50s. I presumambly just expressed badly in English since you, as a native speaker, did not understand. Yes it would be fine if we would know about a second as an unit in those early days of our knowledge of the skies. I have to programme some more functions to check if 23/50s is [0;0:0:1:19]. You probably have some already. I also have to check if this Strabo's quotation is correct. Probably is, since I am not contriving what I write in my TeX notes over the years. And I am glad that someone like you can help me to understand further on what was going on in astronomy in the dawn of human civilization.
• As I've written that I did not have sexagesimal values and I've put in what I had. I understand quite well the representing of these unfortunate values and scales to use beside them. If we observe past events some 2000 years ago within seconds then calculations are not so simple any more. You probably also know for Mayan Tzol'kin which uses a modified vigesimal number system. I am also interested in correlations of the Mayan knowledge and Chaldean and Greek knowledge about the motion of the Earth and related apparent motions. We have just a partial insight of this, since many Mayan inscriptions we are still discovering and so many Greek works before 1000s were lost.
• If you have any extra time can you please check my pensil sketch how Hipparchus might look here (http://www.geocities.com/xjamrastafire/astronomija/hiparh.JPG). (If the link does not work I can sent it via the E-mail ...) This is approx. the fifth or sixth version. Any comments are wellcome. When I'll finished it in colours I'll post it in wikipedia.

Best regards. --XJamRastafire 22:21 11 Jun 2003 (UTC)