Talk:Theory of everything

Here's why I deleted the reference to the Reciprocal System of Theory from the main article: this "system" does not even mention the strong or electroweak interactions, therefore it is not a theory of everything in the sense of the main article: it is not a physical theory unifying all four fundamental forces.

It may be a "theory of everything" in the same sense that the Greeks had "theories of everything": they had metaphysical systems that internally made sense. That however is not what physics is about, and it is not what the main article is about. --AxelBoldt

I'm not a physicist, but I think to assume something "not observed" in the superstring theories is sophomoric, because the definition of a string states it is a hundred million times smaller than a hydrogen nucleus, or proton. In this area try not to think that even the distinguished scientists observe anything. This is highly theoretical, and no one on wiki needs to contradict a fair reporting on the current status of these string theories, unless of course they are working on them with the handful of physicists who proposed the theories. TEO may be an assumption. "...some of the less experienced participants in the enterprise thought that we were on the verge of constructing a complete fundamental theory of the physical world." Then the press began saying there was now a TEO. I think this entire attitude may come from excitement surrounding the first superstring theory's release in 1985. There really isn't a theory of everything... yet[added]~BF

String theories make some very clear predictions which can be verified, most notably the existance of new particles. In fact, the whole concept of supersymmetry should be open to testing, depending on whether or not we are able to find the supersymmetric equivalents of known particles. Btw, TOE not TEO.

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I have now made subheadings to distinguish between the general concept of a 'theory of everything' in the sense that physicists use, and that which would be understood by the common meaning of the term. The Anome

--- Good. There is no sane reason why a Theory of Everything should come from, or be expected from, physics alone. Tegmark seeks it in mathematics directly - Gabora in cognition. Lakoff's view is hard to differentiate from Gabora's without a link so I left them together. I know of no other TOE class idea that is compatible with the cognitive paradigm - but Tegmark's "ultimate ensemble theory" does seem so according to himself (someone has to observe and believe in the isomorphism which implies a cognitive process as strong as anything else in experience).

Not sure if cognitive paradigm conflicts with GUTs - I do not think so but I know of no statement by cognitive theorists that GUTs are immune to the objection they make to non-isomorphic mathematical TOEs (like string theory).

It's also quite fair to consider 'meme theory' and 'gaia theory to be legitimate theories of everything - if culture and ecology are "everything", which to most people on Earth, they are. I object to physicists monopolizing the term but if we make note of the cognitive objection, I am satisfied that this is closer to NPOV. Physicists love to take over generic universals it seems, e.g. Standard Model. A bit like Microsoft that way...

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OK, I see what you did, but why is Tegmark's theory "in the common sense" and not "in the technical sense"? And by "technical" you mean "physicists'" so you should write "physicists'", since cognitive scientists and linguists are also "technical".

There are probably three levels of rigor here: physicists using the Standard Model as a foundation ontology (your "technical sense"), those looking at any combination of isomorphism, cognition, and anti-reductionist ideas to arrive at a derivation of the Standard Model (or its irrelevance to the macroworld), which is still "technical" but not strictly "physical", and a "common" sense by which we would mean more or less a foundation ontology or a full and complete [cosmology]] - somewhere between memes and gaia on the credibility scale...

If you let physicists monopolize the word "technical" and make every other field or profession "common", what does that say about wiki? Hmm.... meta:cliques should say something about that.

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I also don't see why physics and their untestable crap, i.e. string theory, get so much attention or space or respect when there are testable theories, e.g. post-Dawkins meme theory, that get none, according to LDC's "Royal Decree"

Thank you for your invective wrt physics. When I want more I'll pull the chain again. If you want to write about post-Dawkins meme theory (whatever that is) go right ahead. Noone is stopping you, and I wish you'd stop implying that anyone is. If you start claiming that post-Dawkins meme theory explains the interactions of the four fundamental forces, we'll certainly point out that no physicist would give such an idea the time of day.

As to your substantive point, which in the middle of your anti-physics and general anti-science diatribe appears to be that physics isn't the only place a "Theory Of Everything" can come from, is both right and wrong, IMO. Lots of attempts to explain life, the universe, and everything (to borrow from HHGTTG) have been made by people who weren't physicists, or for that matter scientists. By this definition, theists claim a "theory of everything" - namely God's responsible for the lot.

However, the overwhelming majority of people who use the term use it in the context of a theory that "unifies the four fundamental articles of nature". Any theory that purports to do so *is* a physical theory whether it comes from a physicist, wanker^H^H^H denizen of the trendier arts departments, or a monk down from the mountains of Nepal. The content referring to your idiosyncratic and entirely different definition should be shifted to another article. --Robert Merkel, who is actually prepared to identify himself.

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WRT the criticism of Tegmark, I've just read his paper and had a poke around on his website, and while I don't claim to understand all of it from the substantial parts that do make sense to me it's clear that he *is* a physicist (at Princeton IAS) with a fascinating new theory., which AFAICT is, in essence that *every* mathematical construct has its physical counterparts, and our world happens to have physics corresponding to a certain set of mathetmatical constructs because the mathematical constructs are the the right attributes for the existance of what he calls "Self-Aware Substructures" (concious beings). Now, 24, why were you attacking physicists again? --Robert Merkel

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I removed most of the article. Question: Do cognitive mathematicians call their ideas a "theory of everything". If they do, then feel free to add the contents back. If not, then it doesn't belong on the page.

Grape nuts - have no grapes and have no nuts. You can't derive the meaning of something by breaking it down into words.

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United States refers to one particular collection of states rather than all of them.

Ironically, this brings up the big objection anti-reductionists have to a theory of everything. TOE assumes that you can figure out the entire universe by dividing it up into collections of particles, just as our friend seems to think that the term "theory of everything" is merely the sum of theory and everything.

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In arguing the case for the Reciprocal System of Theory, I would point out that the reason the theory does "not even mention the strong or electroweak interactions" is that it is based on the premise that physics is the systematic study of physical reality, not the consistent integration of current theories and their models (e.g. Standard Model). If the interpretation of the term TOE is to be constrained to only include currently accepted physical theories, then it is not, by such a limited definition, a TOE. However, by this measure, a much more accurate and useful theory from, say, an advanced alien, would also not qualify, though most informed people would find that fact quite amusing.

If I recall during the discussions on the RS, the suggestion was made that a new classification (Alternative Theories, or something to that effect) would be a fair compromise. Now, here many months later, I don’t see anything like that. I would really like the RS article to have a legitimate place in the physics section that is NPOV. Where would that be?

- Doug

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Removed from the article:

In less than four weeks, Jim Baker from Houston will announce in a press release that he has a new TOE (Theory of Everything). He says he has certain conditions for its release: namely a suitable peer group of physicists from across the country, along with proper media coverage and much documentation of the release from various entities. His website will be given in a few weeks which will have the press release posted, and/or information on how to obtain the press release.

Great. Good luck. But this does not, in itself, make your announcement of encyclopedic interest, Jim.

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The above talk seems to indicate that various people agreed at one time that Max Tegmark had a point or at least an interesting TOE. So why isn't it mentioned?

The claim that this theory of Tegmark's had some resemblance to cognitive theories of mathematics seems justified somewhat, since those too say that all mathematical constructs have physical structures they describe - in the human brain or cognitive system (only or primarily). It's going too far to say that Tegmark and Lakoff had the same idea, but some statements they make are utterly equivalent.

String theory, also, has the notion of two mathematical descriptions, one 'too big to see' and one 'too small to see', that describe the same observed physics. This seems compatible with the idea that the observed phenomena might be 'too big' and objectively within the universe, or 'too small' and within the cognitive system of the observer.

Without talking about this stuff, a TOE can't really be distinguished correctly from a GUT, can it?