Talk:Palestinian refugee

Moved jewish refugees to end of page. If I am writing an article about triangles, I don't add "and there are also quadrats" in the first sentence. I rather would welcome a separate article about the jewish refugees. Further: do such silly minority views as "there were no palestinians" belong really to the article? I recommend deleting the paragraph. --Elian 23:10 Sep 24, 2002 (UTC)

This deceptively simple question might actually be the most difficult of all. What does the term "Palestinian" mean? The words Arab, Bedouin, Israeli, Jew and Muslim are fairly well defined. Why should the term Palestinian cause so much trouble? Perhaps it is a "loaded term". It doesn't seem to mean "of Palestine" in the sense that a Palestinian person is a resident of Palestine, because that would include Jewish Palestinians. --Ed Poor

Let's have a start? ;-) I found a quite good discussion of the statement "there are no palestinians" in History of Palestine. Maybe we could merge this or link to it. My personal view of the trouble with the word Palestinian: First, I regard as Palestinian the inhabitants of the geographical region of Palestine. In this sense Israelis are Palestinians as well, but an Israeli would consider himself, I suppose, first of all as Israeli. Same as I am German, but also Bavarian, since I live in the region Bavaria. If I had emigrated to the US, I would be still to some extent Bavarian, since I am born there and adopted its culture.

Second, the political sense. In the 20th century we had a development of the founding of nation states in regions of the world where this concept was relatively unknown. Country after country, people after people declared their independence. The Palestinians were, compared to all the surrounding states which had no interest in an independent palestinian state, too weak to establish a state of their own. They got no share of the nation cake. On the other hand, they conceive themselves as Palestinians with a own cultural and geographical identity and also a common history and struggle for a political form of organization which expresses this identity in a adequate way. Since Israel is defined as a Jewish state and not a religious neutral state, I suppose, they feel their identity would be lost in it. What would be your answer if I ask you, what's your primary identity? Are you primarily American? Or Jewish? Or inhabitant of your city? Would you agree if the US merged with Mexico and you would be ruled by a Mexican president? --Elian 18:30 Oct 4, 2002 (UTC)

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We might want to mention that the refugees still live in refugee camps because the countries where they're located refuse to integrate them into their society. -- Zoe

Do that, but please be specific. The situation is quite different in Jordan, Egypt, Libanon, or the occupied territories. There is a lot more to add to the article. For example the second refugee wave 1967 is missing also. --Elian

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• The introduction of millions of non-Jewish refugees would likely lead to considerable demographic change within Israel, changing that state's character from a Jewish sectarian[?] quasi-democratic state to a non-denominational Western-style democratic state. Such a demographic change would violate the Law of Political Parties (1992) [1] (http://www.uni-wuerzburg.de/law/is02000_), specifically provision 7a(1), which states:

A candidates' list shall not participate in elections to the Knesset if its objects or actions, expressly or by implication, include one of the following:

(1) negation of the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people

Israeli Palestinians note that this is used to silence legitimate Palestinian voices and makes a mockery of supposed freedom of speech. In practice almost any statement made by Palestinian politicians can be branded as being somehow against Israel as a Jewish state. When that happens, the politician faces severe consequences, thus effectively putting an end to meaningful debate.

This is something I don't understand. How can a demographic change violate a law? Until this is explained, I move this paragraph to the talk page.

Yes, this needs to stay on the talk page for a while. I don't understand it, either. It seems to be saying that if Israel granted citizenship to Palestinian Arabs from Gaza and West Bank, including the right to vote and hold office, they would be likely to use this political power to destroy Israel. Does anyone else think this is what the moved passage above means? --Ed Poor

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moved from article to talk page

• Doubts as to whether Palestinian refugees are in fact refugees.

The United Nations created a second definition of the term "refugee" in regards to Palestinian Arabs. For this group, an Arab is officially considered a Palestinian refugee even if that person had recently immigrated to the British mandate of Palestine in the last two years before 1948. By this definition, it is claimed, some of the Palestinians refugees actually were never Palestinians, but in fact were Arabs from outside Palestine. Many Israelis consider this redefinition of the term to be an act of anti-Zionism, aimed at weakening the legitimacy of the State of Israel.

Palestinians claim that the bulk of Palestinian refugees had been inhabitants of Palestine for many generations, and the decision to consider Palestinians as any inhabitants since 1946 is purely administrative.

I invite the writer of this part to provide numbers how many people are such doubted refugees. In this general formulation the statement is rather misleading. If there is really a substantial amount "wrongly" counted refugees (with which other nationality?) reformulate and put it back. --Elian 20:23 Oct 4, 2002 (UTC)

Yes, this section is confused. It really needs to be clarified. --Ed Poor

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Now what the hell is this page? Obviously presenting Herzl's opinion and saying it was about Palestinian refugees is an horrible anachronism (he died 44 years before 1948!). Most of this page is useless, and should be united with Palestinian exodus, in my opinion. --Uri

I almost agree. In the German wikipedia there is only one article named "Palestinian refugee problem" for all this. But I'd rather keep the title "Palestinian refugees" and merge the "exodus". --~~n

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"The Palestinians were, compared to all the surrounding states which had no interest in an independent palestinian state, too weak to establish a state of their own. They got no share of the nation cake." --Elian

In the first place, the UN offered the Palestinians half of what was left of Palestine (the Jordanians having been given the largest piece of British Palestine in 1946) in 1947. The Arabs, including the Palestinians, declined. They wanted it all. They wanted no Israel. They said as much. They had been trying to prevent Jews from returning to their ancestral land since the late 1800s.

From 1948 until 1967, Arabs held all of Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. There was no Intifada. There was no movement of liberation. There was occupation by Egypt of Gaza, and annexation of the West Bank (not recognized by the International community) by Jordan. The Palestinians could have declared statehood and had Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem as the capital. Why did they not take statehood then? Because they still believed the Arab countries could do what they said they could: "Drive the Zionists into the sea", leaving the Arabs with all the land (and not necessarily a state of Palestine).

The Palestinians never had a national movement until the Israeli occupation (beginning in 1967), in large part, because they never identified themselves as anything but Arabs. For centuries, "Palestine" was considered just a part of Greater Syria. The Palestinians speak the same language as all of the neighboring countries, i.e. Arabic. Especially now that so few Christian Palestinians are left, truly a sad developement, most Palestinians share the religion of Islam with the neighboring countries.

I have been researching the topic of Palestinian refugees and have read extensively at websites on both points of view. I have discussed the issue with Palestinians as well as Israelis.

It is understandable that so few people know about the Jewish refugees of the same era as the Palestinian refugees. Every time I see a "background" piece on the conflict in the Middle East, it always tells the story of the Palestinian refugees and it never points out that there was an even greater number of Jewish refugees created during the same time.

The story of the Jewish refugees is one with a happy end: they got saved and were welcomed in "their" land where they could live much better than they did before. The story of the Palestinian refugees is one of the many political tragedies. Never allowed to return, no compensation, no apologies, all they received was political oppression from one side and denial that they exist from the other side. --Elian

Well, relatively happy end. The Jewish refugees have never been compensated for their property losses. The trauma they suffered can never be fully compensated. Nor can the trauma suffered by the Palestinian refugees. The Jewish refugees have less likelihood of ever being compensated than the Palestinians. Have you checked this out? Please go to http://www.jimena-justice.org. The majority of Jews who fled Arab countries (and their descendents), now living in Israel, are threatened by terrorist bombs every day. The Intifada has wrecked the economies of Israel, the West Bank & Gaza. In any case, the Jews took care of their own people, a huge burden in terms of relative numbers and the land available. The Arabs preferred and still prefer to keep many of their people in refugee camps.

The Arab countries could create a happy ending for the Palestinians today or any other day. They have the resources in terms of land and money to take good care of every single Palestinian, whether they live in Gaza or the West Bank or somewhere else. It they wanted a safe and secure Israel, they would do it. They do not want a safe a secure Israel, so they do not. The Arab countries gained much property when they forced the Jews to leave.

There are Palestinian "refugees" living a "happy end" within the United States, because the US allows Palestinians to become US citizens. Why did Kuwait not allow the 300,000 Palestinians once living in Kuwait to obtain citizenship?

So, Elian, please ask yourself why the Arab countries prefer to keep the Palestinians in refugee camps and deny them citizenship? By the way, if you would like to work on a joint approach to the subject page, I would be glad to join forces with you in trying to come up with a page with as many facts and as few opinions as possible. If you want to contact me, send an email to wiki@hiosilver.com. --Hlhoffman[?]

By the way, I do disagree with the current Israeli leadership. I think they would be better off withdrawing from Gaza and most, but not all, of the West Bank. It is difficult because Israel is such a small country, surrounded by not very friendly countries. I believe that Israel will get to the point where it will opt for unilateral solutions to end the conflict. How can you negotiate with people who teach their children in school that it is noble to become a suicide bomber? --Hlhoffman[?]

wikipedia propaganda shows its effects? maybe you read the following links and start to think how you would react:

http://www.btselem.org/English/Testimonies/021002_Settlers_Attack_at_Yasuf.asp

http://www.btselem.org/English/Testimonies/020225_Huwwara_Roadblock2.asp

http://www.btselem.org/English/Testimonies/020430_Infant_Dies_in_Rafah_Home.asp

http://www.btselem.org/English/Houses_and_Fields_Destruction/Case3.asp

http://www.btselem.org/English/Testimonies/011113_Death_of_Kheiri_Zaban.asp

http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/Torture_of_Minors.asp

--Elian

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Elian, do you actually excuse mass murder?

From where did you get this impression? I only wanted to show that there may be other causes for terrorism than propaganda in Arab schoolbooks as Hlhoffman seemed to believe.

There causes for support of terrorism, not for leading it. Note the difference (see my reply below)

Do two wrongs make a right? War and ethnic strifes aren't nice things anywhere in the world. Human blood is equally red no matter to whom it belongs.

I agree.

Most of the events described in the linked place took place months after the beginning of the Second Intifada - a war that was sponsored, rather than put down, by the Palestinian Authority. Who was it, but Arafat, who shouted: "With spirit and blood we shall redeem you Palestine"? So if you try to excuse terrorism, don't do it by events that were caused by terrorism.

Does the terrorism of some people justify the murder of innocent children, the humiliation of civilians, the violation of the essential human rights of a whole people? Don't try to excuse this as "caused by terrorism". Do you really view this as justifiable responses to the terror attacks of some Palestinians? Does your enemy's use of torture justify that you torture people as well?

Yes it does. the State of Israel has an obligation to its citizens. If anything can be done to stop foreigners from killing Israelis, it should be done. Now far off from here, in Germany, that may sound dubious. But here, with myself having a chance to get blown up, I'll do my best to stop the threat. Try to put yourself in the seat of Mr. Sharon. Invite a TV reporter and say "Israelis are going to get killed but I'll open that roadblock". It wouldn't pass in Germany, and it wouldn't pass here.

You should rather ask:

• Did the Palestinian complaints about Israel prior to 2000 justify the deaths of thousands?
  • Do the deaths of thousands justify the death of one innocent child? (fill in nationalities as you like)
    • You mean the Shahade incident, do you not? Yes, it certainly does, if some of those thousands didn't die yet. Again, put yourself in Sharon's seat. You can kill Shahade and prevent about a hundred Israelis being blown up by an 1.5 tons of explosives (á la Bali). There's a risk of innocents getting killed as well (by the way, the strike against Shahade was called off several times for that exact reason). What's your choice? Just don't try to trivialize it.
    • The above-said should not be understood as if Israel is indifferent towards the lives Palestinian children. The death of any child - be it Palestinian or Israeli - is considered a loss by Israel. This is unlike the terrorists, for which every death is a gain. This is a dilemma, understood and debated in the Israeli society. Nevertheless, the consensus (and it is on a very wide basis, I may add), is for allowing IDF activities that may potentially hurt civilians.
• Was Oslo so bad it had to be torn to pieces?
  • No. So where is your resistance against Sharon's politics?
    • Sharon wasn't in a position of control during the years 1993-2000 (and it was Benjamin Netanyahu who set the tone in the cabinet while he was Foreign Minister). The one person who decided that thousands were to die was Arafat. Oslo is largely a dead horse now, was since Camp David.
• Is peace possible unilaterally? What is the Arabic equivalent to the Israeli hit "I was born to peace, let it only arrive/I was born to peace, let it just come/I was born to peace, let is just show up/I want so much to be in it" [2] (http://www.hebrewsongs.com/song-noladetilashalom.htm) (heard a lot of it in my school back in 1994)

Sincerely yours,

--Uri

The song is nice, but it shows a lack of understanding. Peace isn't something which "will arrive" or "just show up". Peace is something you have to "make"! And you won't succeed in making peace without making adequate concessions. The statement I heard most often on the Arab side is: "the Israelis want peace, but without giving up anything. They want to have peace, but at the same time they are not willing to stop settlement politics. They only give something if they are forced to." I must say, the history of the last 50 years doesn't show much to convince me of the contrary (and the events here in Wikipedia neither: denial of a Palestinian identity, whitewashing and "justifying" Israeli crimes and so on). And it is very sad if the Israeli youth is now waiting for "peace to happen" instead of demonstrating in the streets for the stop of the settlements, and against the human right violations of the Israeli army. No one is born a terrorist, but actual Israeli politics has its share in the creation of more and more terrorists. You can't suppress a people for 30 years and then expect that they will be instantly nice, when you give them a "bantustan" (and continue to fight for each centimeter of the land). That's the impression of (some) Palestinians. --Elian

The song speaks from the perspective of an average Israeli, not a political leader. At the ground level, peace can only arrive. Now, what I was getting at: the Palestinian public culture (with the exceptions of several dozen Christian intellectuals, vide Sari Nusseibah) isn't really supportive of the peace effort. Can you actually disprove that statement?

You're upset with the Israeli side. Well, I cannot force you to think otherwise. But you cannot ignore the fact that the Israeli withdrawal from the Palestinian cities and the establishment of PA have been a very significant concession in its own right. Moreover, it established a certain relationship of trust that was shattered to pieces. The fact that the Palestinian Authority has maliciously neglected the need to restrain militants (which allowed them to easily return to their usual activities in October 2000) is by itself a blatant violation of Oslo. Did you see Israel dismantling the PA because of that in 1996? The Palestinians have an illegal building operation which matches in scale the growth of settlements. Does it mean Israel should bomb the PA back to stone age?

The great revelation of the recent Intifada is the fact that peace is not an end, but a means. Noone in this country needs a peace that would jeopardize the country's security. And with some leaderships it just doesn't work. Sustainable peace could not be reached with the Nazi Germany. Sustainable peace cannot be reached with the Palestinian Authority.

Israeli politics create terrorists? That is a funny thing to say. The gentlemen running the operation, are the same people who were doing it 5 or 10 years ago. It's just that nobody bothered to stop them since then. There were very few new faces around (until recently, at least). Sallah Shahade was one of the founders of Izz ad-Din el-Qasam in 1987; Muhammad Deif has been around for years; Marwan Barghouti has been running the Fatah Hawks since the First Intifada. Most of the less senior Palestinian terrorist leaders captured has a previous history. In fact, most of those men unleart how to live without killing Jews. So yes, true, they all feed upon the Palestinian distress. But that distress wasn't the reason why they came in the first place. --Uri