Talk:Football (soccer)

Talk:Football (soccer)/(archive 1)

Talk:Football games

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JTD - please explain your last edit.

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1. As some people call the sport 'soccer' (even though a minority) I thought it important to put it in the opening line, making it clear that it is the minority name. That way, from the opening everyone (soccerites, footballites) knows from line one what the article is about. It simply a logical change that recognises what you say (and I accept it) is the dominance of the word 'football' while informing others that the other word used is 'soccer'.
   
   
2. The line where you blamed the US for spreading the name soccer (apart from opening the threat of WWIII with irate Americans who might take offence - they might set George W. Bush on you, or even worse force you to listen to one of his meandering speeches!) is quite inaccurate. I was talking to someone in the FAI on Wednesday who is a friend of mine and the issue of why Ireland calls the sport soccer a lot of the time was raised. He said it seems to date back as far as the sport was played in Ireland, which is long long before anyone on this side of the Atlantic was aware of 'americanisms' or had direct access to TV, sports coverage. (Back then even Coca Cola wasn't available in Ireland!) I actually never knew the US called it soccer until you mentioned it. John mentioned how when the Irish soccer team were going to play in the US in 1994, one question the FAI had to find out was 'what do they call the game in the US?' So the name soccer in Ireland owes nothing to the US whatsoever and almost certainly came from the UK. Nor is there any evidence that it came to Australia via the US. Today we have US 'culture' on our TV screens, in our newspapers, etc. But when the name 'soccer' became widespread US culture wasn't as dominant. Jerry Springer was just a nightmare in the future. The parents of the actors in 'Friends' hadn't been born. Until the 1960s if not later, the dominant external cultural influence on states like Ireland and Australia was Britain. By the 1960s, in fact decades earlier, the word 'soccer' was widespread in both Ireland and Britain. My father's generation, who were born in the 1930s, called it that, while the Gaelic Athletic Association's infamous ban on 'foreign games' (already gone generations) banned 'soccer'. And that ban was introduced over one hundred years ago.

So your speculation on the origins of the 'soccer' name in terms of international usage being due to American cultural influences is almost certainly far wide of the mark. It had to have come from Britain, perhaps through the colonial governing class. In any case, you risked cheesing off some readers by appearing to cast their cultural gifts to the world in a disparaging light. You and I on this side of the Atlantic probably share a mutual 'attitude' towards American's cultural 'gifts' to mankind, but in this case (certainly in terms of how the name 'soccer' became common in Ireland & Australia) the evidence suggests America is 'innocent'.

(Question: how did America get the 'soccer' name? Here's a thought. If it passed to two 'Old Commonweath' states (Ireland & Australia), might it have gone, through the same British colonial governing class and their servants to a third, Canada, and from there spread to the US? It is just a thought.)

My only other change was to fill a missing word in the top line. I presumed the missing word was 'popular'. I've been out of Wiki a few minutes so I didn't get a chance to type this explanation before I got your message. I don't think the changes changed the overall meaning; one just put the alternative name where it needed to be, in the first line. The other just removed a rather provocatively worded and on the basis of my own knowledge, inaccurate claim with a simple factual statement. Most people call the sport 'football'. A minority call it 'soccer'. Good text, BTW, and I think calling it [football (soccer)] rather than [football] or [soccer] is the right compromise. At some stage, someone was going to query the use of football. This way, before more information on the game is put on Wiki, we have a set way to refer to it that should make everyone able to follow what it is about. JTD 04:48 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)

It's undeniable that the US culture is making the name more widespread. (Google lists football under soccer for example). I wasn't suggesting it invented the word, far from it as the second sentence in the article demonstrates. As the word soccer is in the title of this page and the usage of the term is explained in the second sentence it seemed unnecessary to put a parenthesised comment just after the article definition when it's clear we're talking about the game you call soccer. Re: 'popular' I had the word order wrong when I added the word team to the text I had already written so I'd put "team most popular" instead of "most popular team" so thanks for fixing that. Mintguy .. ohh also I think "(sometimes also called soccer in some nations)" is a bit unweildy. Mintguy

(sometimes called "soocer") would be sufficient. It is sometimes called "soccer" even in England, which is where the word "soccer" came from.

In partial answer to the question of how Americans got the word soccer. The answer is that the word came from England, and many Americans were at first reluctant to use it. It is used out of neccessity. Bluelion 10:04 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)

Bluelion -I like your edits. I've been unable to find out when the Aussie associations started using the word soccer. I've left a message on an 'Australin soccer' forum but haven't had any answer. Mintguy

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Rev. Moon's right-hand man, Chung Hwan Kwak[?], is the owner of a championship-winning football team in South Korea: Songnam Ilhwa Chunma[?]. Would someone like to write an article on them, or better an article on Korean football? Here a website (http://www.korean-football.com/clubs/) to get started. (I would write it, but I'm hopeless pro-Ilhwa so I can't write neutrally about them.) --Uncle Ed 14:32 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)

The Koreans had great success at the last World Cup, much to the regret of the Japanese. Mintguy

JTD - Re: your edit. It's speculative and makes no mention of the fact that 'football' was used in virtually all non-english speaking nations. The word 'Football' has also remained the predominant word in Commonwealth countries where there is no rival, or more importantly - locally more popular sport to take the name football. The word soccer has become common not because of the toffs that used it but because it existed an an alternative word, as Bluelion has already pointed out. Mintguy

It is speculative because, short of holding a vast number of seances, we'll never get the info from those who were there. The point was that, where the sport came to countries were there already was a sport called 'football' and an alternative name was needed, the colonial classes may well have had access to an alternative name, given that you say its originals were among such classes. But it important not to implicitly suggest that in places like Australia or Ireland, it came from the US because there is next to no chance of that. Such countries had little contact with american sporting culture until the late twentieth century, yet the word appeared at the start of the century when their main cultural source. So if we are going to say that now it is spreading through US cultural influences (which is itself speculative!) we need to say that the while the latest 'wave' of the word originates in the US, the earlier 'wave' couldn't have, and all the circumstantial evidence suggests it must have come through links with the UK.

JTD I've never said or suggested at any time that the word spread from the US to Ireland or Australia. Nor is it implied in the text. The paragraph above the one you entered makes it clear that the word 'soccer' became popular in countries where a rival sport developed. Whether that sport existed before or after Association football is irrelevant. For the most part the word football was used interchagably for all of these sports. The first wave as you put it occured not where a rival sport preceeded Association football but where a rival sport became more popular. It simply spread as an alternative and distictive name. There is clearly no need to speculatively suggest that Carruthers and Jeeves passed it on, it was simply an alternative word that was available. As far as its spread in recent years is concerned there is no doubt that American cultural influences are involved and the Internet is another avenue in which this is taking place. Google indexing football under soccer is a good example of this. Mintguy

By the way, I just noticed today among the papers my local shop that three British newspapers and one Irish newspaper used the word 'soccer'; while two of the Bitish papers have 'Irish editions' and so could have included for that reason, one doesn't, so they had obviously carried the word in their British version too. JTD 21:42 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)

Whatever the papers say - You'll have a hard time finding a football fan in Britain who will ever use the word 'soccer' when discussing the game. I don't think I've ever had a conversation where I've ever used the word unless it was in a similar context to this. Football is the peoples game and football is the peoples word for it Mintguy

Ohh and the papers are fond of alliteration. "soccer star", soccer supremo", "football fanatic". Mintguy

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Soccer is the US name for the Great Sport of the Spherical Ball, wherein opposing teams try to kick it into the other teams goal. That's how I always heard it growing up in Boston. Then people started to tell me that the rest of the world calls it football, which confuses me since I thought that was when you have to carry or catch the funny-shaped dingus in the opposing teams endzone or kick it through the goal posts way up in the air!

I think we need a chart or table to keep all the terms straight :-) --Uncle Ed 21:09 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)

American football, Canadian football, Association football... The article perhaps should be titled "Association Football"? - stoltz.

After a long debate. The article title of football (soccer) was settled as the best option. I was against it but I have to admit that I'm warming to it. Firstly the term "Association football" has never been an official name for the sport and was only used to distinguish it from other codes and it isn't really in common usage today. Most people know the sport as football and those who don't know it as soccer. It also allows the use of the pipe trick i.e. [[football (soccer)|]] comes out as football. Mintguy

I've added two words to the following sentence. (change bolded).

the increasing usage of the word may well owe much to the cultural dominance of the USA, which is shaping language and definitions well beyond its borders.

Reason: I agree the line is probably correct but because we cannot prove it, it is somewhat POV. Adding in the qualification may well makes it more NPOV, suggesting a likelihood rather than stating a fact that we cannot prove, even though it is a fair supposition. Is that ok with you, Mintguy? JTD 23:57 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)

np. Mintguy

I should stay out of the "cultural dominance of the USA" controversy, because I'm OK with the way it is, because it's just a theory. But I don't buy the theory. The existence of the internet means that there is a whole lot more communication between people all over the world, and that causes language differnces to diminish. It works both ways. I've picked up a lot of British expressions. Should I blame that on "Britsh cultural dominance"? <g> I think not.

BTW, Mintguy, I like your stuff, too. I have no idea about names of the Australian Associations, but it might be interesting.

The article is looking good. I initially thought that Association football would be a good title, but nobody actually uses that except to explain where the word "soccer" came from. The way the articles are named now is good. Bluelion 09:34 Feb 22, 2003 (UTC)

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"the first Association football team formed outside of England was the Oneida Football Club of Boston, Massachusetts, USA."

Should this be "Outside the UK"? I don't know, but it seems unlikely that the US got a team before Scotland or Wales. Bagpuss

It seems unlikely but it is true (or at least in essence, and perhaps needs qualification (I only just checked this out)) The Oneida club was formed in 1862, which was before the formation of FA and therefore strictly speaking they didn't play Association football to start with, but they played the dribbling game as opposed to the carrying game. The oldest Scottish football club Queen's Park F.C. was formed in 1867, and Wales and Ireland were later still. I think I need to research the Oneida thing a bit more. Mintguy

As long as you're checking. I was thinking it might have been a slip. Bagpuss

This article is getting better and better (and it was pretty damn good to start of). Well done. JTD 00:23 Feb 23, 2003 (UTC)

Well The first few paras are ok, the rest still needs a lot of work. BTW I'm still working on the history stuff (although real life has been interfering) and it's a damn muddling business, I might put some stuff up in a temp page for review, before commiting it to an article. I've got some information from various websites that I've not been able to confirm, so am reluctant to commit to. Mintguy

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"though many British teams' names end in "AFC", an abbreviation for association football club. " The only proffesional clubs using AFC I can think of ar Sunderland AFC and AFC Bournmouth. A few Amateur club use it, but I can't think of any off hand. Don't you think MANY is overstating it a bit? Mintguy

Well Google finds 95,500 hits for "AFC football club", but on closer inspection, this includes ones where AFC means "Aberdeen FC", "Athletic FC", "Ararat FC", "Arsenal FC" or "Adelaide FC" as well as ones where AFC only appears in links to the page, so not in the official team name. However, "many" is a nice, vague word, so the count could be as low as 12 and I could say I was right.

Okay, I'll change it. Bagpuss

P.S. Don't forget the proposed "AFC Wimbledon". Bagpuss

If a google search produces hits to "AFC football", many will refer to "American Football Conference", which is gridball. <g> (half the NFL) And what about "aussie"? There are also an number of "soccer teams" (that's American English <g>) in the US that use "AFC", meaning "Assoc.FC". Bluelion

Well if US teams can be AFC as well, that belongs in the article. Perhaps it's a worldwide thing. Bagpuss

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Please, please, be VERY careful using google searches.

remember:

• Goggle produces all matches, no matter how right, wrong, ludicrous or whatever. (There are 29,400 matches to 'Princess Diana murder', including claims that Osama Bin Laden killed her, which, supposedly, is the real reason why Blair is supporting Bush, to kill the son of a bitch who killed the 'People' Princess'. Another goggle site talks about a secret plot to kill Hillary Clinton so that Bill could marry Diana, who would then move to the US, Harry become a US citizen and be elected a senator! Do a search on Diana on google and that is the sort of garbage you will dig up as well as the real stuff.
• Google produces matches which may not mean why we wish it to mean. AFC is a classic example. Football could mean soccer, gaelic, australian rules, american, etc.

So please can we stop quoting Google searchs as though the number of references thown up means something. Those references may be right. Or they may be the rantings of a couple of paranoid nutters, who then have their ramblings read by someone, who sets up a site, who is in turn read by someone else who sets up a site, and hey presto, the numbers climb and looks credible if you do a google numbers tot. (If everyone on Wiki right now stopped what the were doing and opened sites with the words 'Wikipedia is known to be a CIA front', and left those pages sitting there for conspiracy theory nutters to read, come back in a few weeks and you could find google searches throwing up hundreds if not thousands of references to 'wikipedia = CIA links', with others then saying 'oh but everyone is saying it. Look at all the entries on google!'. While I may use google to track down information (which I then am high questioning of) I've given up treating google search numbers as being of any use whatsoever. But they simply aren't. JTD 03:13 Feb 24, 2003 (UTC)

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Well, the Name section seems to be shaping up well; let's hope it doesn't become the biggest part of the article, though...

Despite my provincial American upbringing, I have become aware that football is played with a round ball and kicked into the goal in much or most of the world (you know, what we Bostonians innocently called "soccer") -- while only in America is that double-pointed thing passed and thrown and carried into the endzone.

I don't care which article "gets" the coveted football title, as long as nearly all readers will avoid an unpleasant surprise when they try to find information on their favorite sport.

I see that my old football games article is now the redirection object of football, and I wonder how everyone feels about that? (Don't worry, you won't hurt my feelings if you change it back :-) --Uncle Ed

Not any more. Bagpuss

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Oh, I had seen a volleyball style game in Tailand on TV, except the players use their feet, not hands. Could it be counted as football? Also, I know there was a very ancient chinese football game, maybe it can be added here as part of the history of football. Finally, I find the list of football games here is still confusing..... Wshun

From History of football: "The earliest documented mention of any activity resembling football is found in a Chinese military manual written during the Han Dynasty in about 2nd century BC. It describes a practice known as "tsu chu" which involved kicking a leather ball through a hole in a piece of silk cloth strung between two 30 foot poles. It was not a game as such but more of a spectacle for the amusement of the Emperor and it may have been performed as many as 3000 years ago. " I might make the link to that more obvious. Bagpuss