Talk:Persecution of Christians

I have added material about the persecution of Christians by Jews, and I've noticed that this subject ties in with that of Christian antisemitism, but I'm having trouble thinking of how to word the link. One question is to what extent was the persecution of Christians by Jews exagerrated to justify Christian antisemitism? Many of the passages people have attacked in the NT as being antisemtic recount persecution of Christians by Jews. Also, the ancient accounts of persecution of Christians by Jews obviously laid the groundwork in some ways for the blood libel -- in fact people such as Julian of Norwich and Anderl von Rinn, supposed medieveal victims of Jews, were celebrated as Christian martyrs, in the same way as Stephen, Peter and Paul.

Also, I think for balance, we should include some sort of link or section (or maybe even a whole new article) on persecution of others by Christians, and persecution by Christians of each other. We could link in there such things as the persecution of Greek philosophers by Christian Roman Emperors, expulsion and forced conversion of Jews and Muslims from Spain, the Crusades, the persecution of the Albigensians and Waldenses, and the wars of religion around and after the Reformation... -- SJK

We should also define what is meant by "persecution". There a number of different forms, and different levels of severity. --Wesley

In the last century Christians have been enslaved in the Sudan, and murdered by the dozens in many nations. However, such persecution seems to be socially acceptable, since no one speaks out against it, and the media hardly touches it. But if one Church is closed in Israel for security reasons, this gets ten times the media coverage of the mass murders of Christians in south-east Asian nations. RK

I agree, and that's exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. If this is going to be done objectively, we have to include context, and some kind of sense of proportion. If possible, it would be helpful distinguish between isolated incidents and examples of broad types of activity; we don't want to list every single incident of persecution in all places at all times, any more than we would want to do that for anti-semitism or other sorts of behaviour. At the same time, by listing specific examples, we don't want to leave the reader with the impression that they are only isolated incidents IF they are not. --Wesley

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In the Roman section, how about information on throwing Christians to the lions (in the coliseum) - did that happen?

Yes, it did. I think that's how Polycarp died in the second century. The story is recorded in Martyrdom of Polycarp, in which the story of his martyrdom is help up as an example for all to follow; for instance, he fed a meal to the Roman soldiers who came to arrest him. Burning Christians was also common, especially under Nero. --Wesley

True, but let's make sure we explain why the Romans felt that the persecution was valid -- Christianity was considered a threat to Rome because the refusal to honor (not believe in) the Roman gods could bring the wrath of the gods down upon Rome. Also, Christians were protected as Jews until the two groups made it clear that they were not the same. Finally, there needs to be reference to Pliny's letters to Trajan and his responses, which indicate a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. JHK

Good points. In fact, I think the Romans accused the Christians of being atheists because they didn't believe in the Roman gods. There was also at least one case, I think in Ephesus, recorded in which the statue makers or silversmiths saw Christianity as an economic threat, and therefore tried to get the authorities to arrest the leading Christians on trumped up charges. --Wesley

Please, please, move the external links to the end of the article. Wikipedia is not a web directory, nor is it an attempt to organize other content (though one must admit that would be a worthy project, it's not our project). --LMS

Yes. I believe the organize-other-content project is http://www.dmoz.org. Sort of like a yahoo directory of topics and subtopics, but definitely a community project. I don't read wikipedia to find links to other sites, I read wikipedia to see what others have written and contributed to this project. --Wesley

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In the article,

for Christian missionaries to use synagogue pulpits to preach the claim that he would soon return, leading the armies of Heaven, to establish his kingdom, would have made the Jewish community vulnerable to accusations of treason, and thus to Roman punishment. Jewish leaders would have to supress any apparent insurrection, or risk Roman wrath.

seems unlikely since Jews were already known to the Romans as suicidal nutballs whose terrorist activities were extremely annoying. -- Ark

It is now time for Wikipedia owners to officialy ban "ARK". He is constantly vandalizing Wikipedia with anti-Semitic hatespeech. End it now.

RK, I agree the above line is insensitive, but from what little I know about the history of the area at the time it does crudely summarise a reasonably-widely held view about the Roman perception of the Jews at the time.

The issue is not what was the general perception Romans had of Jews at the time (I would be quite proud if the Jews enjoyed a general reputation for reisting colonial occupation; would that everyone, Jews today included, always oppose colonial occupation). The issue is the possible commission of specific crimes. Some 1st century CE Jews were quite willing to break Roman law and if necessary face the consequences, but with a few notable exceptions Jewish leaders tried to make the best of things -- and it is these leaders who would punish rebels. I take seriously your claim that there is a widely held view, Robert -- do you think the article could be clearer?

I'm struggling, however, to see it as anti-Semitic hate speech,

Robert, is it that much of a struggle to see someone classifying an entire people as "suicidal nutballs" and "extremely annoying" as hate-speech? Slrubenstein

and AFAICT he has only contributed once or twice to areas relating to Judaism, which is hardly time to establish a pattern. Ark, please be careful how you express things, particularly on topics like this where, as you've just seen, things get passionate very quickly. --Robert Merkel

Actually, RK is referring to a couple of long and vicious arguments we've had about Israel and anti-Semitism. More than enough to form an opinion. (Whether it's a rational, justified or even sane opinion is a different matter entirely.)

I'm more concerned with possibly having made a mistake. Now that I think about it, IIRC, the articles I read said it's the Brits who thought the Jews were lunatics and couldn't wash their hands of the Middle East fast enough. But I also read that the Jews were as masochistic two millenia ago as the early Christians, so it looks like I lucked out anyways. :) -- Ark

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I removed the following text as unattributed speculation:

Some have speculated that the New Testament account may have been purposely distorted by its authors to curry favour with Rome by switching primary responsibility for Jesus' execution from the Roman authorities to the Jews.

The "Some" who have "speculated" needs to be identified if it is anyone besides the person who typed in the text. It is also somewhat off-topic, and might possibly belong in the Christian anti-semitism article instead. Wesley

I think the text should be restored - but as you point out, it doesn't really belong here. In my reading I have seen that this claim is a fairly mainstream view among a number of historians and/or Bible scholars, both gentile and Jewish. I am not saying that it is necessarilly the majority view; just a common one that is widely accepted as reasonable. I don't have a ready citation at hand, but I will keep my out for citations on this topic. It also is the view that I happen to find extremely likely. There is no more reasonable way to explain how the Roman persecution of Jews (including the crucifixtion of thousands of them), somehow got rewritten as a pro-Roman, render unto-Caesar what is Caesar's, non-Jewish (and sometimes anti-Jewish) book. (It makes sense considering the time and place that it was written.) Perhaps we should have a discussion of this idea in Christian anti-Semitism article, as you suggest. RK

The historian Paula Fredriksen is one example of someone who deals with these questions, although I do not know if she has proposed this specific claim. By the way, it is not that the "NT account was purposely distorted," it was that more that the "NT account" itself was produced by people living under specific political conditions, with specific agendas, which colored their memories or their own interpretations of Jesus' career and fate. This coloring is probably something that happens in all history, Slrubenstein

One of the early baptismal forms, which became known as the Apostles creed, says that "suffered under Pontius Pilate" is an article of faith. I suspect that this can be shown to have been in use in some form even under the Caesars. So, if the New Testament was trying to shift preponderant blame to the Jews, to avoid offending Caesar, the official interpretation of the New Testament doesn't seem to show that they got the message. It was Pilate who attempted to shift his blame; without credibility, in the Christian view. Mkmcconn

Wesley writes that "intolerance, exclusivity and schism are not the same as persecution".

I disagree. In fact, these terms are a very good definition of persecution. I think you are reading "persecution" as "physically assaulting", but that is not what is stated or intended. Assault is only the last type of persecution. Many other forms of persecution exist! Even so, Christian intolerance towards other Christians, exclusivity and schism often do lead to bloodshed, assaults and all out wars. To mention just the most famous example, a large part of the terrorism in Ireland is part of religious conflict between Catholic Christians and Protestant Christians. The nation of England also has a long history of warfare between one Christian group and another, and the violence was long preceded by intolerance, exclusivity and schism. RK

Conflicts within mainline Protestant denominations (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_maco.htm) Forces of Schism within Christianity (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_di.htm)

So must one be pluralistic to avoid being a 'persecutor'? Is merely separating from another group the same as persecuting that group? That seems far too broad. Wesley

I think we are getting into a pretty abstract question here, but perhaps that is unavoidable. I don't want to speak for RK but I think you are reading his claims too brodly, Wesley. I think RK is simply pointing out that there are other forms of persecution besides direct physical assault (whipping, stoning, imprisonment, torture, etc). I agree and frankly would be surprised if you did not. I think you are asking the question from the other direction -- is "x" always (necessarily) persecution, and I am sure that both you and RK would agree, no. For example, just because I punch or arrest someone who is Jewish doesn't mean I am persecuting Jews; he may have insulted me personally or he may have robbed a store, in both cases the assault has nothing to do with his being Jewish (ditto, Christians). So I think "persecution" involves some kind of attack against a group identity or belief. I do not see that it matters whether the attack is material or discursive, physical or symbolic. I do think you are raising a more profound question, what is the difference between disagreeing and attacking? Can I disagree with Christianity/Christians without "persecuting" them? I think so, and I think we can establish criteria for telling the difference. And, pace RK, I do suspect that pluralist assumptions are somehow involved... Slrubenstein

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This comes from Talk:Christian persecution

-A friendly amendment - this should branch off of (but not be a subpage - horrors, no!) and refer back to another entry on 'religious persecution'. I think it should probably be a headered section on religious persecution. I'm the last person to suggest that the persecution of Christians doesn't happen (I read a lot of memoirs and history from the Soviet era), but we've got to set it up so everyone can get in their persecutions. --MichaelTinkler, who suggests something like:

20th century religious persecution:

• persecution of Christians
  • by other Christians
  • in Islamic countries
    • in Indonesia
  • under Communist regimes
  • in Israel

• persecution of Islamic believers
  • by other Muslims
    • Shiite persecuted by Sunni
    • Sunni persecuted by Shia
  • in India
  • under Communist regimes

• persecution of the practice of Judaism (insofar as that can be distinguished from ethnicity?)

• persecution of Animists
  • by Christians
  • by Muslims
  • under Communist regimes

• persecution of ...now fill in all the blanks...

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Augustine's writings have always been viewed with skepticism by Eastern Christianity, and Tertullian ended his life formally denounced as a heretic, an adherent of Montanism.

These arguments are special pleading. Augustine and Tertullian are highly regarded. What they say on this issue has not been condemned by the church in any segment of it, as far as I know. I removed them.

It seems a shame for Augustine to suffer disrepute just because a boneheaded "scholar" misunderstands his quote. Tertullian wasn't _the_ leader of the church at any time, and it's silly that he would be credited with inciting a mass-suicide movement among the Christians. Mkmcconn

It's not clear to me what exactly you mean by "special pleading"; is that a specific logical fallacy? Augustine and Tertullian are highly regarded only in the West, and I believe the West agrees with Tertullian's ultimate excommunication as a Montanist, while still drawing from his earlier writings. We don't have any context or reference for these quotes; the external web site points to a dead tree book which presumably has footnotes citing the sources. I agree that their writings are probably being misused and misrepresented here. Wesley

Followup: ok, think I found out what special pleading is. I really don't think those arguments are a special pleading when used by Eastern Christianity, because those two haven't been particularly influential in the East. On the other hand, I don't really care whether they get restored or remain deleted, either. Wesley

I want to extend this discussion at length, because I think it's important to the topic. Not all Christian suffering at the hands of others is admired by Christians, nor should it be. The quotation in the entry is an astounding example of complete ignorance of its subject. Such a blind and prejudicial interpretation of the crucifixion, John the Evangelist, Augustine of Hippo and Tertullian, should not be answered by discrediting Augustine, or Tertullian on this one point, any more than it can be answered by discrediting John. The answer is to show its entire incompatibility with the attitudes it pretends to explain.

Its not worth challenging that some writings and reports which came out of the persecutions show a morbid preoccupation with dying. They do. And at times this fixation became perverse, or was misunderstood by those outside of the faith, which ellicited corrections by confessors and teachers (some of whom were later martyred). Suffering and death are meaningless in themselves; but they are transformed by the pursuit of the goal of faith, which is life.

That's all Augustine is doing in the place referred to (I'm assuming that the writer wants to refer to City of God[?], where Augustine argues this way). Death for death's sake reduces life to vanity, but in contrast martyrdom shows how death is swallowed up by life, the crown of a life lived for Life's sake. Romans unsympathetically thought that Christians desired death, and promoted a culture of death, but Augustine shows that martyrdom is the opposite, and is the epitome of the Christian warfare against death, and the triumph of life, through the uncompromising full embrace of Truth even in the face of death. This is the reason Christians regarded the janissaries with such singular horror: the idea of perverting death (instead of life) into the central principle of salvation, or that Christians would be deceived by promises of incorruptible rewards into voluntary enslavement in the service of death itself, is despicable to Christians, and always has been except in those places or periods which Christians regard with the greatest self-reproach.

Similarly, Tertullian was saying that it is the obligation of every Christian to confess Christ, and rather than obstacles to confession, suffering and death for Christ's name are the epitome of the confession of faith. All Christians must be martyrs. For example, Cyprian wrote that martyrdom is an angelic baptism, to be desired because it not only takes away sin but also the further possibility of sin. The "scholar" makes clear how he would interpret all statements like that - in a sense that is exactly antithetical to the Christian faith professed by the author of the statement. But, in their Christian sense, the remarks are not in the slightest contrary to Eastern Christianity, or peculiar to the West: even if the authors of them are not equally admired in the East and the West. Mkmcconn 18:43 Oct 17, 2002 (UTC)

Well put. I have to agree. Trying to discredit Augustine and Tertullian on this point was a knee-jerk reaction on my part, and not at all well thought out. Please leave out the text in question. Perhaps some of your above statements could be included in an article on martyrdom? I don't think it exactly fits here, but seems well worth keeping in an appropriate topic. Wesley 19:11 Oct 17, 2002 (UTC)

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"However, Pilate's wife, through occult practices, had warned Pilate that he should not have any dealing with Jesus..." -- we need some documentation on this. The locus appears to be Matthew 27, but it is much sketchier than this.

I think this is a good point. It does not say "through occult practices". It simply says, "in a dream". Mkmcconn