Talk:Chinese fire drill

Isn't this term considered racist, those silly people racing around but accomplishing nothing? Ortolan88

I think the origin of it is. I am not sure what the racism is, whether it is what you say or not. I do know that now we just do Chinese fire drills without thought about its history. That is, it is not racist for most people *now*. -- Ram-Man

Sorry, but whether *you* think about its history or not, it most certainly is racist and demeaning.David de Paoli

Well that is an interesting debate. It may even be related to the debate over the word "nigger", which I am not about to start here. What I am saying is not a point of view. It is simply the fact that people today take the term just as a label not really as too deep a meaning. Sure it is racist (no one yet has shown conclusively that it is, but we all suspect it) and that should be put in the encyclopedia entry as well. But be sure to put all of this in. -- Ram-Man

I'm sure the poster meant no offense, but the term is racist because it perpetuates a negative stereotype about Chinese people. What next? "Mexican standoff", two duellists shooting at the ceiling? Ortolan88

I'm sure you're right. Although it, and others like it, might be included in an entry entitled "Derogatory Stereotypical Ethnic References and Adages" or something like that. Such a subject might be educational in that it clearly reveals the racist origins of these sayings.David de Paoli

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Is this ever going to be more than a stub? SHould it be merged into a "list of stupid pranks"? -- Tarquin 17:38 Sep 30, 2002 (UTC)

Possibly, but this *is* racist and has a history that could be developed. It is not merely a "stupid prank". -- Ram-Man

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Well, golly gee! Jest listen to you all white trash moaning about racist langage! When I was a boy, all we had to worry about was walking 10 miles to school -- uphill each way!!! ;-) --Ed Poor

Has anyone added the uphill in snow phrase to the encyclopedia? It is just about the most popular phrase for parents to tell their children in America! -- Ram-Man

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A lot of terms that start out as racist become ingrained in the culture and language and lose their racist meaning in everything but the name. I was looking up some information and found another similar situation. The term "Saturday Night Special" was a term that originated from a racist term against Blacks. While these terms have an origin of racism, they are not necessarily used as such, though they may still offend people. Goodness, I am sure the nickname "Ram-Man" could offend people! -- Ram-Man

As the excellent Wikipedia article makes clear, the term Saturday-night special was devised and used as an insulting racial code word. Ortolan88

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Okay, all kidding aside: what do we do with articles whose titles managed to offend one ethnic group or another? Delete them, because they're "obviously" racist? --Ed Poor

What is the wikipedia policy on swear words? Those are offensive as well. The policy should be similar at least. -- Ram-Man

Well, I wrote an article called [shithead (/w/wiki.phtml?title=Shithead&oldid=308908)], but some fuckhead deleted it ;-) --Ed Poor

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The encyclopedia is meant to educate. If people can't see the racism in "Chinese fire drill" then the article should point it out, as in the "Saturday night special article". Same goes for swear words, "Although considered by many offensive, this word ... "

This has made me think about "Indian giver". It could mean, if an Indian gives you a gift, he is likely to take it back, but it might also refer to the custom of potlatch, where guests receive all the gifts, or it might refer to the way white people have treated Indians. In any case, an article on Indian giver would have to take all of that into account.

By the way, implying that only older people use Chinese fire drill as a racist term while young people are innocent, what's up with that? Ortolan88

I've used the term Chinese Fire Drill many times without thinking about its origin. I am not saying that *all* old or young people think a certain way. But there was an important historical reason for putting down the Chinese in the 1960s. With the persecution of the Chinese surrounding some events such as the attack Pearl Harbor, this fits into that. These days I would argue that children in general are *far* less racist than their parent's generation. So they simply don't mean anything racist by the term and would not think of it as such. Of course it *is* a racist term. No one is denying that. -- Ram-Man

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There's a fine line between "educating" and propagandizing. Is the Wikipedia supposed to assert that racism is wrong? How about religious bigotry? How about indifference to other people's problems in general? I don't think it's the mission of Wikipedia to educate. It should just provide an accurate reference to knowledge.

On the other hand, if you'd like to join me in building an educational wiki... --Ed Poor

" It should just provide an accurate reference to knowledge." Exactly. And the sayings we're discussing are offensive to some and rooted in racism. The subject is not whether racism is wrong or not. It is not surprising to note, however, that persons who are *not* the targets of these slurs are the ones most militantly ready to use extreme or preposterous examples in order to discredit those who are offended by them.David de Paoli

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Was there ever a time when the idea that Chinese people are incapable of dealing with emergencies and that their only response is to run ineffectively about was a prevalent stereotype? Today is the first I've ever heard of it. My impression of Chinese is that they are outstandingly patient -- not prone to panic.

: This is the most plausible reference to the origin of this slur that I've seen- http://www.word-detective.com/back-x David de Paoli

Okay, I read that reference. It says: Hugh Rawson, author of some of the most fascinating word origins books in print. In his marvelous Wicked Words, Mr. Rawson notes that the use of the modifier "Chinese" in the derogatory sense of "confused, disorganized or inferior" dates back to the time of World War I and was largely a British invention. Other "Chinese" slurs of the day included "Chinese ace" (an inept aviator), "Chinese national anthem" (an explosion) and "Chinese puzzle" (one with no solution). [1] (http://www.word-detective.com/back-x)

Let's get working on an article like ethnic slurs or ethnic stereotypes. --Ed Poor

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Geez, I didn't mean to start a firestorm with a simple stub about a nearly-obsolete expression. Wow. Since I started the entry, though, I'm hoping my latest edit, incorporating the excellent information added by you guys above, will satisfy most.

(Those who claim that any idea offensive to someone should *never* make into Wikipedia will of course, never be satisfied). The disclaimers others have already made, plus my own, regarding the potential offensiveness of the term should suffice for the rest.

For the record, I never intended to offend anyone, I just saw "Musical Chairs", randomly associated "Chinese fire drill", and thought I should put it in. People say it, it has a meaning, (two really, literal and figurative), why not add it in?

For David di Paoli, and for the record, I'm both Jewish and Canadian, and I give the community permission to add in one more derogatory expression for each of these affiliations, if it helps balance things. :-) --Steve Rapaport

Jewish *AND* Canadian? Ha- ha. We could have a field day with those ;) FWIW, I'm an Italian Jew, so I know offensive stereotypes, too... the fact that I fit most of them is beside the point.David de Paoli

...And I'm a Canadian Jew living in Italy. You think Italians in America are stereotyped, you should see them here...:-) --Steve Rapaport

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BTW, for 151.38.27.208, I looked at the copyright info of word- detective and they forbid being linked to anything but their homepage, which is why I deleted the link as such.David de Paoli

Ok, that's me again (Steverapaport), idiotically forgetting to login before editing. I've fired off an email asking *permission* to link to the guy's page at word-detective, either we get it in writing or we don't...--Steve Rapaport

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Can we at least have some precision about this article? Is it popular in America, or in "America"? I can't fix this myself, as I don't know if they do this in Bolivia or just the US of A -- Tarquin 22:41 Sep 30, 2002 (UTC)

As far as specifically "Chinese Fire Drill" goes, the source I cited previously in this dicussion reports its origin is in early 20th century Britain, so at least that one wouldn't be restricted soley to US usage. As far as the other ethnic stereotypes, I've witnessed evidence of most of them, or variations thereof, in at least 4 other countries; Canada, Japan, Germany and Mexico. Whether or to what degree they occur in the rest of the Americas besides Canada, Mexico and US, I wouldn't know.David de Paoli

I know for sure it made it to Canada, dunno about Britain but seems likely if that's where it comes from. Could just say "English speaking countries" I dunno.

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For David de Paoli: I have permission to link to word detective: Here's the mail from Evan: From: Evan Morris <words1@xxx> To: Steve Rapaport <steve@xxx>

Hi,

No, I don't have any problem with any link, and links to any page (not just the front page) on my site are fine with me. The more the merrier. That "copyright" statement is there primarily to deter newspaper columnists and usenet "experts" who at one time were copying huge chunks of my stuff and using it without attribution.

Thanks for asking.

Regards,

Evan

So David can you please put the link back, I don't know how to mess around with the history system yet.

--Steve Rapaport.

:: Done. Thanks, Steve.David de Paoli