Talk:Bowling for Columbine

• /Archive 1 - someone should go through this and include relevant information in the article

For example, Moore conducted an interview at a Lockheed-Martin plant near Columbine, and inquired whether the production of nuclear missiles at that plant might contribute to destructive attitudes in Columbine's children. In actuality, that plant does not produce nuclear missiles at all, but rockets used for launching satellites. Indeed, the plant was also used to take former nuclear missiles out of service, converting decommissioned Titan missiles into satellite launch vehicles.

That's not true. Moore never makes this statement. It could be criticized that he has not in fact pointed out the specific factory in question does not produce nuclear missiles -- but he never actually claimed that this particular factory produced them in the film. That's why the PR man he interviewed did not refute the statement; he did not make it. "So you don't think our kids say to themselves, gee, dad goes off to the factory every day - he builds missiles. These are weapons of mass destruction." That's the only statement Moore makes. He does not refer to the specific factory in question. --Eloquence 04:19 17 May 2003 (UTC)

Idiotic distinction. He interviews people at a Lockheed Martin plant which doesn't make missiles, and then asks whether these kids are saying, "gee, dad...builds missiles", but he isn't trying to suggest that people are making missiles at THAT plant? Nobody in Columbine makes missiles at ANY plant, because there aren't any plants making WMDs near Columbine. --Len

Please, it is not easy to have a discussion without turning it into a flamewar when one side uses phrases like "idiotic". The truth is that the claim repeated by many critics -- that Moore openly lied in the movie -- is wrong. Perhaps he believed the factory to produce missiles, and perhaps the company representative should have pointed out that it does not. However, since his statement was reasonably generic, it was, at most, misleading. In particular, he uses the phrase "our kids", not "your kids". Why do you think he does that?--Eloquence 21:48 22 May 2003 (UTC)

Then please don't distort facts. Evan McCollum (the Lockheed Martin employee he interviewed) did indeed dispute Moore's statement. He said, "The word 'missiles' implies a weapon. Although other units of Lockheed Martin Corporation elsewhere in the country produce weapons ... we make no weapons at the Littleton-area facility Moore visited." He also said, "I provided specific information to Moore about the space launch vehicles we build to launch spacecraft for NASA, NOAA, the Dept. of Defense and commercial customers, including DirecTV and EchoStar." You are engaging in the same misleading behavior as Moore when you blather about McCollum "not disputing" Moore's statement. --Len

McCollum did not respond in this fashion in the interview, where he replied: "I guess I don't see that specific connection because the missiles are designed to defend us from somebody else who would be aggressors against us." In the interview, McCollum did not understand Moore as implying that he was talking about the specific factory near Columbine. Obviously it was beneficial for him and Lockheed-Martin to jump on the bandwagon of criticism later, but if he really thought Moore's statement was misleading, he should have said so during the interview. --Eloquence 01:02 23 May 2003 (UTC)

With respect to both of you, I think this discussion is missing Moore's point, which is that the world's superpower -- a country that spends a good deal of its resources making weapons to use against others, and a good deal of time making war against others, also has a very high level of internal violence. That is the point.

He is not arguing that the Columbine shootings occurred "because" there is a Lockheed-Martin plant nearby. He is arguing that the Columbine shootings are one more example of violence in America. And he is arguing that there is some relationship between how violent Americans are as individuals with how violent we are as a country. That we are a violent country (I mean, we have a state that is committed to violence) is evidenced by the sequence in the film about US military intervention abroad, and by coverage of the "industrial-military" complex ... exemplified by Lockheed-Martin.

Film works through juxtaposition through editing. That Moore uses this technique to communicate his point is unsurprising and unremarkable. Slrubenstein

And dishonest. It isn't necessary to lie in order to make one's point. Specifically, in doing so he loses any claim to have written a "documentary". --Len.

And, in Grey Gardens, universally considered a documentary by both documentary makers and film critics, the "pink room" argument which appears near the very end of the film is one of the very first things the Maysles shot. They put it at the end to heighten emotional effect, and viewers watching this observational, cinema verite piece will universally think that it happened at the end of the Maysles' stay, because that's where it appears in the film. Distortion is inherent in documentary just as much as it is in photography itself, and if you think that in viewing anything you are viewing the "absolute truth" then you are setting yourself up for serious and protracted disappointment. Koyaanis Qatsi

Moore did not lie. --Eloquence 01:02 23 May 2003 (UTC)

If that's your idea of honesty, it speaks volumes about your character. McCollum disputed Moore's version of the interview. You're conclusion, "...which is why McCollum didn't balk", is idiotic. Moore edited the film. --Len.

I am getting tired of your personal attacks, which you have been making since your first comment in this discussion. I note from your talk page that I am not the first person to complain about this behavior. Our policy states: "No personal attacks on the Wikipedia, period. No calling people trolls, no calling people Stupid White Men, no accusations of any kind relating to the character of another person, nor their race, creed, sex, national origin, etc. The only thing that matters is the articles, not the people who write them." You have called my arguments "idiotic" and have defamed my character. Please keep in mind that violations of Wikiquette are a bannable offense on Wikipedia.

On topic: Where did Moore edit the film to mislead his viewers? McCollum's clarifications were made after the film, in the interview he directly responded to Moore's question saying that he did not see a connection because the missiles were used against aggressors. This very response implies that McCollum understood Moore exactly in the way I interpreted his statement. --Eloquence 14:10 23 May 2003 (UTC)

Viewers watch the movie and conclude that nuclear missiles are made at the LMAO plant near Columbine. This must come as a total surprise to Moore. Your reply: "Well, that's their fault. Moore certainly never meant them to draw this conclusion." Fine; include fiction in the Wikipedia if it pleases you. I wash my hands of this article. --Len.

The point you are missing is, of course, that Lockheed Martin is the nation's largest military contractor. Since Moore never claims that the particular factory in question produces WMD, his implied argument stands unanswered: It is bizarre for a society to openly embrace the production of destructive weapons, but on the other hand see no connection of this to everyday violence -- children learn by imitating adults. Yes, Moore makes this point through slight exaggeration by moving with the camera through the LM plant -- but he makes no incorrect statement. It is typical for his critics to jump on what is at most a slightly misleading implication, but in doing so, they themselves have, unlike Moore, made many incorrect claims, as you did above. --Eloquence 16:29 23 May 2003 (UTC)