As for other historians and consensus, have you read Robert Wistrich? His work is seminal in the field. How about Almog? Arendt? Cohn-Sherbok? Hay? Littell (he's great!)? Valentin? Weinberg? (and these are people who covered the general topic, not just specific spisodes and eras. How much of Berger have you read? Exactly what historians are you talking about? Danny 16:46 Jan 25, 2003 (UTC)
Danny, you are error on this point. You initially claimed that the two sentence you added explained what anti-Semitism is. Your new additions show that David Berger believes that those two definitions are problematic. This conflates modern-day anti-Semitism with an entirely different phenoneon, ancient anti-Jewish beliefs held by non-Jews in antiquity. The entire point of an encyclopedia article is to explain a concept in simple terms that the casual reader can understand. The two sentences you offer are not at all clear or enlightening. If you have a better definition than the various new ones, feel free to add to them. If you think they should be clarified, then please edit and clarify. But don't just totally delete every commonly held definition, except for the two sentences that you happen to like. RK
Do others agree that the new material below, defining anti-Semitism, is clear and useful?
Hostility toward Jews resulting from no legitimate cause or in a degree that greatly exceeds any legitimate greivances ... Disdain for supposed physical or moral features of Jews, whether baseless, exaggerrated, or rooted in excessive generalization.
Who wrote this crap? This isn't Slashdot. Chadloder 20:31 Jan 25, 2003 (UTC)
I agree with Chad- its goyim bashing, as usual.
Lets not fight, here. If left at its purest level, anti-semitism is, simply "racism, specifically against Jews" - a dictionary entry, and this is not a dictionary. -Stevert
how about:
I don't think Stevert's paragraph is incorrect, but I think it would be better to have a dictionary-style entry as the first paragraph, and then expand it with examples of anti-semitism throughout history, pointers to other pages which discuss anti-semitism or anti-Semites, and maybe a closing paragraph explaining how the term has become more politically loaded, with some saying it is used unfairly to brand anyone critical of the state of Israel or its policies. Chadloder 20:46 Jan 25, 2003 (UTC)
In any event, I agree that an academic definition may not be the best way to frame the whole article. But I certainly do think that an encyclopedia article is meant to report on scholarship. Chad and Stevert, it doesn't matter whether we like Berger's definition or not. This article is not about what you or I think. It is an account, based on a survey of scholarhsip, of a particular topic. If Jewish leaders (e.g. how does B'nai Brith define anti-semitism), and academics like historians, sociologists, and otehrs, have differing definitions of anti-semitism, our task is not to choose which one we like the most, our task is to present these definitions and enough context so that readers can understand why there are different, even conflicting, definitions. Slrubenstein
RK, you seem to think that Berger is refuting himself in the second paragraph I cited. Hardly. A "burden on historians" is not a refutation--he is simply saying that in some instances, historians hold a subjective view of whether a particular act was anti-Semitically motivated or not. An example of that appears below--the ransacking and razing of the Jewish Temple at Yeb (Elephantine), which was an act against Jews but not necessarily anti-Semitic. As for simply saying anti-Semitism is racism, that is an over-simplification of Berger's second point. Briefly put, Berger's points are A) hostility toward Jews without any cause ("I just don't like Jews") or in excess of just cause ("A Jew ripped me off, so all Jews are dishonest"); and B) Stereotyping, similarly groundless ("Jews hate Christians") or based on exaggeration and generalization ("Some Jews have big noses, so Jews have big noses"), this later can be both physical ("Jews are dirty") or ethical ("Jews are cheap"). It should be obvious that all of the above statements in parentheses are examples of this.
As for calling it racism, this too is not accurate. Anti-Semitism can be racist, but it does not have to be (the claim that there were a preponderant number of Jews in the trans-Atlantic slavetrade, as refuted by Faber, is anti-Semitic but not racist; similarly, pointing out that the number of Jews involved in the Russian Revolution can be anti-Semitic while not racist). This is an important distinction too, since it serves as the difference between medieval Christian anti-Semitism, which could be rectified through the act of conversion, and Nazi anti-Semitism, which could not.
Berger's definition is encompassing all variations of anti-Semitism, ancient and modern. The two are different, and there are various shades in between. I have yet to hear you give an alternative source from Berger, where he defines anti-Semitism any differently. What is your basis for saying that he does? (oh, and I have also read several hundred pages of Berger, and they were on the topic of anti-Semitism). If you do not have one, then it is you, noty me, who is misrepresenting his views.
I found the other definitions inadequate. Here is why:
By the way, why do you think those are commonly held definitions? The only one that has any claim to that is the Webster definition, and even that is problematic. As in Glock and Stark, it fails to delineate the various forms of hatred, covering them up in a general blanket statement.
What you think of my historical writing is pretty irrelevant. Your platitudes about me being potentially a "great" contributor are pretty meaningless too. I do not trash stuff because you write it. I will remove stuff that is inaccurate, poorly worded, overly-simplistic, false, incomplete, or confused. We can also turn your question around, of course. Why do you feel so threatened when I challenge your work? Don't bother answering. I don't really care. I am taking your advice. I stick to scholarship, not pop answers. I would hope you do the same.
As for Chadloder, exactly why is it crap? What is wrong with it? It is a definition by a scholar. You can be more specific than that. Back to RK. You write that you agree with Chadloder that it is crap. Forget me, for a minute. This is the definition Berger gives (read the book--you'll see it is). Are you saying his definition is crap?
As for Svertigo: How is it the hyperbolic "goyim-bashing"? In fact, if you read it carefully, you will see that it is anything but that. In fact, ten pages down, the author of the original actually takes a position that might surprise you: The failure of the Arabs to embrace the Zionist immigrants was hardly unexpected and is not in itself grounds for a charge of anti-Semitism. In other words, he rejects some of the popular notions of what is and what isn't anti-Semitism and takes a more stringent view of it. On the other hand, your proposed definition does not define what racism is. Furthermore, calling it racism begs the assumption that Jews are a race. Not a statement I'd be willing to make.
Finally, do what you want. Once again, I am sorry if the fact that I have actually studied the topic, write about the topic, and teach the topic is a hindrance to your preconceivced notions about the topic. As with the timeline for Jewish History, we have yet another topic that I have been chased away from because I commit the crime of actually knowing something about it. And when will you be graduating, RK? Danny 22:01 Jan 25, 2003 (UTC)
--- I appreciate the long, well thought out above by Slrub and Danny. I'm speaking as a non-Jew, who is obviously not informed as to the nuanced history of anti-semitism, but Im not speaking out of ignorance, nor, do I think Im in dasagreement with any major points above except those few that seem to attempt to confuse the thrust. (like we deal with on other high controvesy articles) But speaking as a novice, and with an ability to articulate my impressions decently, Im keen to point out poorly written leads, (first thing I see).
Lets start with my idea that the nuanced details belong, in some order in the article. Then lets add to this my readership, perhaps as an "ignorant NPOV" (like in neural net programming), and I'm seeking clarification; The article should lay out clearly. But this is not new. Lets suppose the reality, that someone comes to this article with some vague, biased, or otherwise concept of what anti-semitism is: There needs to be the tie to the general, to place it all in some inteeligent frame. Here's my prejudice :
So a decision must be made then: Either one says anti-Semitism is: ethnic discrimination against Jews, (thus, a valid basis for historical research) or it must be represented as a colloquial referent: unclear and with broad usage in its meaning. (not valid as a basis for historical research) Both should be included, but in a way that clearly marks the line between its scientific usage and its political usage. see: here for a simplified breakdown on my "deep thoughts" of this word's use.
Thus, from my point of view, its valid to state anti-Semitism as a subset of historical science ( human history/ethnic conflict/racism/anti-Semitism) and contain within said heading the history of... But's its also valid to point out anti-Semitism has a recent and relevant history of political use, as a derisive word. In the US, anti-semitism gets "all the press"; as a novice, im wondering, how is it that other forms of ethnic based discrimination must share the word "racism," while Jews are priveliged their own special word for racism, ethnic discrimination, religious discrimination...ad inf.. ? What misconceptions am I operating under, please, before I dive in and start another NPOV based edit war. ? -;) ---Stevert
Svertigo, thank you for your comment. I hhave to run out for an hour but I will answer you as soon as I get back Danny 23:48 Jan 25, 2003 (UTC)
Back. Svertigo, I am not sure I properly understood everything you wrote, but I will try to answer as I do understand it. I apologize if I misread what you are saying.
First of all, I agree with you that anti-Semitism is a phenomenon of the hatred of a specific group (I am hesitant to use the term racism because of the implication that Jews are a race), and that this phenomenon has distinct parallels in other forms of hatred and racism, such as, for example, the treatment of African Americans and Native Americans, etc. They are all subsets of a much larger phenomenon of xenophobia.
I also agree with you that the term anti-Semitism often has "too wide a context" (your term). For me this means that the term is bandied about too freely (I would even go so far as to say as a hyperbolic phrase used to score political points, but that is just my POV). That is why I believe that a carefully worded definition is so important. It will help us to determine whether charges of anti-Semitism are based in fact or rhetoric (this will be especially important today when discussing the anti-Semitism-anti-Zionism discussion. Personally, again, I believe that one can be anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic--in fact up to WW2, most Jews were.).
I disagree that anti-Semitism is a form of ethnic discrimination. One can be racist without discriminating against someone. Segregation is officially ended in America, but that is not to say that anti-Black racism has disappeared, or that it will never retransform into discrimination.
I also believe (and I have solid grounds for this) that anti-Semitism played an important role in the emergence of Western culture. Furthermore, Jews and Gypsies were the most visible ethnic minorities in Europe for centuries. This in itself makes anti-Semitism worthy of an article. It also relates to why it has a distinct name, unlike other forms of racism. In fact, anti-Semitism was a political philosophy in 19th century Europe: it was part of the platform of some parties and the raisôn d'etre of others. While my take on it is that scapegoating was an easy way to deflect criticism of the government or ruling elites (for instance, Russia and the Hapsburgs), the fact that this could even become a political platform is worthy of an article.
That being said, I agree with you that anti-Semitism is worthy of an article since it is a prominent subset of xenophobia that had a lasting impact on society (the Holocaust, for one, but there are also many other instances, including the rise of the middle class and settlement in the New World, all of which relate in one way or another to anti-Semitism). As for the "privileged" special term to describe anti-Jewish sentiment--well, it was coined by the anti-Semites to describe themselves. I wish they hadn't coined it, but then again, I wish they weren't anti-Semitic either. In other words, the fact that there is such a word shows how rampant anti-Semitism was in the culture of the time. And yes, calling people anti-Semitic to score political points is deplorable. That makes an accurate and carefully worded definition all the more important. Danny 00:56 Jan 26, 2003 (UTC)
I stand by what I said about the "definition" of anti-semitism in the current version of the article. I don't care who the author was or what college he teaches at. Crap is crap. If it takes a simple thing and makes it less clear than it ought to be, it's crap and doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. I'm withdrawing from further discussions about this topic. I don't think this HAS to be politically charged, but you are making it so, and I don't have the time to argue with you. If you want to grind your axe here, go for it. Chadloder 01:10 Jan 26, 2003 (UTC)
Ill stipulate that we aggre heavily, Danny, and I found much of it informative; It also doesnt sound like you and RK are arguing over much in particular. So ill limit my comments here to the interesting parts which I might chime in on, and leave it at that for a while:
This struck me as antithetical to everything I believe in about ethnic conflicts, although in an innocent sorta way. Ethnic discrimination is quite a broad genre, and anti-Semitism, in order to not fall under it, would have to be highly-specialized indeed. And the typical problem with specialized charachterizations is that nobody knows what the definitons of this and that are, and so nobody agrees, and therefore it remains an island unto itself, for its own sake, and forsaking all reason. -SV
sv continued: On the other hand, if you accept ethnic discrimination, (as a factor of ethnic conflict, and a universally applicable, humanist term for classification of this phenomenon) then we seem to be making sense. Maybe were not in agreement after all, but anyway...
LOL - this is like my theory (seriously) that pedophilia drove the formation of the Church's social structure. hehe... I like your theory, and I think its almost axiomatic: Jews, unlike most other ethnic groups (in addition to having a long history, belonging to the founding relgion from which sprang Christianity, Islam...etc ) have a distinction of sticking it out where they were not "wanted", in one way or another, either out of facility, or sticktuitiveness, or some other "ethnic" traits that's best left to mere speculation. As such, Jews must have played a role in ethnic identity developments in the west, simply by being the everpresent xenoculture.-Stevert
Some way back, someone asked if legitimate hatred of Jews was anti-Semitic, in response to the definition in the article. My response is no: if Fred and Joanne beat me up and steal my money, and Fred and Joanne happen to be Jewish, and as a result of getting mugged I hate Fred and Joanne, then that hatred is not anti-Semitic, unless I hate them in a degree that greatly exceeds my legitimate grievance at getting mugged. However, if I mis-generalise to saying that all Jews are muggers, or that all Jews in England are muggers, then I am anti-Semitic. Martin
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