Talk:1812

The United States came into existence the moment it declared itself to exist. England recognizing it was nice, but it had to exist prior to recognition in order to be recognized to begin with. -º¡º

Nice try, doesn't work, thus:-

- ENGLAND didn't exist as a sovereign state;

- Lots of people made attempts at rebellion that didn't come off. We don't, for instance, recognise the Australian Eureka Stockade as an independent republic, or Riel[?]'s rebellions in Canada. The way this works, it only counts from when it succeeds. PML.

Hmmm.. I seem to remember celebrating the bicentennial in 1976, not 1981. Rmhermen 00:40 Apr 15, 2003 (UTC)

No doubt you did. That was not the two hundredth anniversary of independence, though, just of the declaration - despite all the wishful thinking. And while the war was lost in 1781, the treaties settling the matter (i.e. preventing another attempt) didn't happen until 1783. As for "there, we're done with this" - well, I suspect something may still turn up. PML.

Even if England had never recognized the United States, and persisted to this day in claiming that the United States did not exist, the United States would *still* have existed since 1776. Other nations had recognized the United States prior to 1783, so who cares when England came around to seeing it that way? Still, since England didn't recognize the US until 1783, I believe it is correct from an English point of view to say that the US didn't exist prior to that. A similar parallel might exist today between those who claim Palestine exists as a nation, and those who claim it does not. As it stands, I think the article is fine. -º¡º

1781 is when the Articles of Confederation were ratified. Not ust when Britian lost the war. Rmhermen 19:49 Apr 15, 2003 (UTC)

If a brand new Constitution were passed next year, which completely replaced the one existing today, and that Constitution set forth the government of the United States, would you say that the United States had come into existence in 1776, 1781, or 2004? -º¡º

I would say 1776 - it was PML who had the problem with it. Rmhermen 20:38 Apr 15, 2003 (UTC)

Indeed. But since all seem loving and happy with the current article, this conversation can blow away like dust in the wind. -º¡º

PML clearly has a problem with idea that the United States existed at the moment of their Declaration of Independence. His problem seems to stem from his Anglo-centric choice of the Treaty of Paris as the moment of creation, even though (as someone else pointed out), France recognized the United States in 1781, Holland recognized the US in 1782, etc.). This argument continues on my user talk page. Chadloder 21:12 Apr 15, 2003 (UTC)